S2 Ep. 9: Jaap Burger, independent expert on EV grid integration | flexibility, grid congestion, the cost of public charging and V2G

0:11 欢迎收听 Smart Charge by RiDERgy 播客。我是 Claudio Geyken,RiDERgy 的创始人兼首席执行官。这是你了解电动汽车和车队能源管理及智能充电创新的节目。Yap Berger 为了本期节目从乌特勒支乘电动长途大巴来到柏林,途中恰好在汉诺威附近的一个卡车充电枢纽充电一次。长途电动大巴出行不再是关于未来的故事。Yap 在电动出行领域工作了15年。

1:01 他从阿姆斯特丹市的第一批公共街头充电桩项目开始做起,那时候漫游意味着运营商之间通过电子邮件互发标识符和充电数据记录的电子表格。如今,他独立地与电网运营商、充电桩运营商、政策制定者和技术专家合作,越来越多地在欧洲层面工作,向监管机构翻译创新者已经能做到的事情,再向市场翻译监管可以为他们做什么。我们讨论了为什么荷兰的电网地图几乎全是红色,表示无法新增连接。

1:36 以及为什么如果你具有灵活性,这个问题就没那么重要,还讨论了今年秋天荷兰即将开放的低压分布式灵活性新机制,以及让公共充电保持昂贵的成本循环。请享受与一位真正的智能充电专家的对话。嘿,你今天怎么样?嗨,挺好的。ICNC 这个节日般的活动之后还有点累。是的,我们刚过完这三天,对吧?对对对,所以就是大量的演讲、演讲、演讲,会议、倾听、聊天。

2:14 是啊,也许在我们更多了解你的背景之前，我们先快速讨论一下,给听众们介绍。那么你的主要收获是什么,或者活动结束后你脑海中特别萦绕的有什么想法吗?嗯,这个活动每年都在增长,所以我总是对电动出行生态系统中有多少人来到这里感到印象深刻。我觉得特别有意思的是,尤其是今年，主题是关于规模化智能充电，但我发现令人着迷的是有多少

2:49 参与者和公司在活跃并专注于其中的特定方面,无论是来自软件、运营、分析,甚至是灵活性融资。看到这种增长真是令人着迷。我想回顾一下,哪怕只是也许5年前,你会看到单个公司试图做所有事情并将所有内容整合到一个系统中,而现在你会看到确实需要那些能够专业化并真正兑现

3:28 释放灵活性承诺的公司,而且确实有一个增长市场,这是我认为真正非常需要的东西。是的,完全同意,也许只是为了，因为我们可能会使用一些行话，我们可以开始讨论一些事情并确保我们有一个框架。所以灵活性,或者称之为能源管理,或者称之为智能充电,

3:52 有时可以互换使用,绝对是作为概念在增长,并在市场上有不同的细微差别和利基市场,有不同的参与者加入。我认为这很重要,也是正确的。我也同意 Orlin,他作为活动主赞助商和 Apeco 的创始人做了主题演讲,他的演讲标题是"做大、做精、或者出局。"我喜欢这个,因为我认为它有道理，你真的需要分解我们将深入探讨的这些主题的复杂性。

4:29 你需要有专家真正理解并拥有它。是的,完全完全同意。是啊。所以我也参加了,显然,正如你所听到的,是的,也只是一些额外的想法。我认为它的增长令人难以置信。我认为 Habje,也就是组织者,在那里做得很好。我不确定世界上是否有比这更大的关于这个特定主题的会议,所以在机场组织它也令人印象深刻,就在柏林市中心。

5:03 我觉得令人印象深刻的是它既是一个社交活动又是一个高质量的会议。有时这相当困难,因为社交显然非常重要,以至于你有时会错过一些会议部分。我也很高兴所有这些都被录制下来,你可以稍后观看以补上。我也在 YouTube 上观看它们,对于电动汽车行业的新手来说可能不太适合,

5:32 但即便如此,我认为你可以得到一些指导,这是一个非常开放的社交环境,你可以看到人们只是交谈和交流知识和更新,其他人则花时间现场观看演讲者。我认为有时亲自见到这个人也很好,但当然能在 YouTube 上观看所有内容也很棒。是的,我发现

6:02 特别有用的是，有一个主舞台、一个创新舞台、一个技术舞台,还有一些赞助商也有自己的舞台，所以正在讨论各种各样的主题。根据你的兴趣,无论是真正的通信技术细节,还是关于融资,还是关于实际用例,节目中都有适合每个人的内容。完全同意。今年,我发现超级有趣的还有非洲环节。

6:34 有几位来自非洲的非常重要的利益相关者参加了,在他们的演讲和小组讨论之后进行更深入的了解和讨论很有趣,内容是关于肯尼亚如何基本上在其运营中使用大量电动公交车。我和负责人交谈,当我问现在是否是发展中国家用电动出行跨越内燃机汽车的正确时机时,就像他们在以前的技术上做的那样,他们表示同意。他们说,是的,现在是正确的时机。

7:07 仅仅 TCO、成本，我们真的不需要监管。能体验到这一点是一个美好的时刻,对吧?看到这个很有意思,那些是你可能会得到的一些经验教训。

7:23 你需要在现场看到人们讨论这个问题,才能真正理解和感受到这个变化有多么重要。巴士是一个很好的过渡话题,也许我们也可以用那个轶事来结束,这样我们就不会在国际充电网络委员会上花太多时间,因为我们想了解你的背景,并真正详细地谈谈智能充电。你住在荷兰,对吧?你是坐巴士来的,但不是普通的巴士。跟我们说说。

7:52 这是由Tandem Drive组织的一辆电动大巴,这是一家荷兰公司,基本上是为电动汽车领域的充电点运营商和移动服务提供商提供的软件层。他们召集了一群来自荷兰的电动出行人士,所以我们从乌得勒支乘电动大巴前往柏林。我们在途中充了一次电,因为它的实际续航里程约为600公里,稍短于乌得勒支到柏林的距离,所以我们在汉诺威附近的Mayland重型车辆充电站停了一下。

8:35 看到这一点非常有趣,还有电动卡车已经在大量使用这些设施。显然,大巴能够进行长距离电动行驶，这不再是遥远未来的事情;这是今天就已经可以做到的事情。我预计一些运营商业长途巴士线路的公司可能会开始使用电动大巴。说实话,我认为在第一阶段最有意义的做法是

9:10 单次充电完成行程,也就是那些在车辆电池续航范围内的所有行程。但随着我们看到充电基础设施、充电速度以及充电地点的持续发展，因为你需要不同的配套设施，这也可能迅速改变。因为正如你已经提到的肯尼亚和其他非洲国家的情况,这在欧洲显然也同样适用。电动化的经济性就是说得通的。是的,非常酷。

9:45 是的,我也在积极关注Flix及其对可能实现的电动化速度的看法。很酷你亲身体验了这一点。那么让我们深入了解一下你。你能告诉我们你的背景吗?我们也可以稍微回溯一下,这样我们就能理解你是如何成为智能充电专家的,正如我最近多次说的那样。所以我在电动出行领域的第一份工作始于15年前,说出来感觉已经很久了。

10:29 当时我为阿姆斯特丹市工作,他们正在部署第一批公共路边电动汽车充电桩。我帮助他们制定流程、与用户的互动,以及与相关利益方，特别是电网运营商，的互动。我成为了项目负责人,与整个团队一起为公共充电网络进行招标。我们进行了第二次招标,为此我必须学习和理解一些技术标准、概念和规则。但许多角色在当时仍未定义。

11:15 所以我们和其他人一起必须找到并定义系统中的一些互动。顺便提一下,因为我们可能会讨论这些角色，充电点运营商、充电点管理系统、移动服务提供商，所有这些术语在2011年都还没有定义。有不同的名称,而且你并没有真正清晰地划分这些角色,充电点运营商、移动服务提供商。

11:46 定义还不够清晰。大多数可用的例子,包括来自美国等其他国家的例子,都是建立在单一系统网络的理念上,即所有内容都将在一个系统内，既包括管理充电站的充电点管理系统,也包括用户管理和计费。但我们在阿姆斯特丹希望建立一个可以有多个充电点运营商的系统,用户可以拥有单一访问令牌，当时仍然是现在仍在使用的RFID卡，使用户能够使用单一访问机制。

12:35 解锁不同运营商的充电,无论是A城市的公共充电运营商还是B城市的公共充电运营商,也包括私人充电。所以我们必须塑造一个更清晰定义这些角色的系统，谁在运营充电桩,这包括什么:认证、计量、计费。但账单应该发给谁?

13:08 接收方将是移动服务提供商,因此他们会接收来自各个充电点运营商的信息,并确保将其整合到一张发给司机的账单中,这实际上也涉及基本定义电动汽车漫游的概念。从那时起,显然所有事情都专业化了,在漫游协议中也出现了专门的角色。是的,因为Hubject不是在2011年创建的，我记不清了。我们与创始人一起做了几期关于Hubject的节目,但我记不起来了，你们当时就已经使用他们了吗?不,不,不。

13:54 所有这些都早于OCPI,也早于当时的其他漫游中心或协议。在最早期阶段,漫游意味着有一个在运营商之间共享的电子表格白名单,这是发送其他包含

14:19 充电数据记录的电子表格的基础。所以知道哪个标识符在哪个充电站充电，我们真的在谈论电子表格、CSV文件、通过电子邮件发送的Excel文件。真的非常基础。我很高兴从那时起这个系统显然已经发展,变得更加专业、安全、高效和标准化。有意思。那么从这段经历之后,你去做什么了?我去了几家不同的公司工作。我也在11年前成为了一名自由职业者,在这个领域工作。

15:04 那是我的公司,我为公共和私营领域的不同组织工作。但越来越多地专注于电动汽车电网整合主题,从用户角度来看:如何激励用户在他们的充电会话需求中提供灵活性?他们如何被告知?他们的好处是什么，当然也包括经济利益?这在不同参与者之间的互动方面需要什么?所以显然是用户、移动服务提供商、充电点运营商,但在技术层面上,你还会涉及充电站。

16:01 充电站可能需要与同一站点的其他充电站进行交互。现场可能有一个能源管理系统,你可能想要使用。可能有输入,关于能源生产和能源价格的预测,你可能想要纳入其中。特别是在过去五年里,我也一直从监管和政策角度在欧洲层面研究这个问题。那么欧盟立法如何帮助塑造这个市场?欧洲各国如何大规模部署这个,市场在做什么?

16:46 创新者在做什么,基本上是在推动现有框架的边界?所以我有时也试图这样描述:我试图向政策制定者翻译创新者已经能做什么以及他们面临的障碍,因为他们处于可能性的边缘。他们是第一批遇到障碍的人,所以他们能够识别需要在监管或政策中改变什么来推进这个主题。同时也反过来，这个领域有许多公司

17:30 有时难以理解政策和监管能为他们做什么，不一定是作为负担,正如人们通常认为的那样,但有时也塑造新的机会。只是想了解一下,从阿姆斯特丹的经验来看,你是如何做到这一点的?我看到了其中一些经验,但也许你可以详细说明一下

17:54 促使你做这件事的关键里程碑是什么。例如,我作为自由职业者做的第一件事是为荷兰的一家能源供应商工作,他们对如何使用互联汽车API进行电动汽车智能充电有一个基本想法，那是在2015年。路上的电动汽车越来越像一台计算机,有一个API,也就是编程接口，我不知道我们需要解释多少这些缩写词。不用太多,没关系。

18:38 所以在那个时候,汽车不仅仅是用于移动的东西,这是一件新鲜事,而且就像任何连接互联网的设备一样，你可以与之交换信息,向其发送命令的东西。这使得这家公司能够远程启动和停止车辆充电。通过将其与该公用事业公司的交易台连接起来，能够利用短期需求,也许启动充电从而吸收一些过剩电力,或者暂停充电以防止处于能源平衡的错误一侧，

19:30 这显然对该公用事业公司有价值,而且价值足够大,可以分出一部分来既资助公司又让用户加入。所以他们因提供这种灵活性而获得奖金,并且通过智能充电的概念看到他们的能源账单减少。非常酷，这已经是在2015年了。准确地说,我也希望我们达到这样的细节水平:他们是用于，也许也向听众解释一下,因为我们很少讨论这些类型的话题，

20:15 有一个不平衡机制，我想这就是你所暗示的，公用事业公司的不平衡机制,基本上是让电网始终保持在50赫兹的稳定状态,也在日内市场的交易中。整个系统中需要保持平衡,所以每个参与者,包括生产者和消费者,都有兴趣，或者实际上被要求，预测他们

20:50 在特定的15分钟时段内将生产或消费的能源总量。如果他们错过这个预测并造成不平衡,那么他们必须支付罚款,而且这相当沉重。我不知道最新的数字是什么,这个罚款在2015年如何转化以及如何演变,但至少有一个激励措施,据我所知,今天仍然存在。它很少被视为智能充电的杠杆之一，我们讨论的主要是其他话题,比如削峰,也就是减少电网费用。

21:31 或者参与能源市场,可以说就是交易。也许我可以详细说明一下那里发生了什么以及你对不平衡市场的看法,对吧?所以这已经是让我们称之为更先进的能源市场之一,能够几乎实时地调整能源平衡。有多个时间跨度,所以有多个。

22:04 交易电力的时刻，也许不是作为用户,而是你的能源供应商和他们的平衡责任方,他们基本上预测你的能源需求,不仅是你的,而是所有消费者的,还有生产者的,显然我们也有既是生产者又是消费者的产消者。预测越准确,他们就能越好地采购能源,越好地进行交易。

22:40 所有这些都有一定的价值,其中一些并不总是那么明显，所以它可能直接体现在价格中,但有时它是避免罚款,就像你说的,或者它可能是因为它使你能够出售你已经提前购买的一定量的能源,并在稍后的时间出售,所以你在两个价格之间也有价差。所谓的虚拟交易。是的。那么，也许因为我从未完全参与虚拟交易，既然你提到了,它在实践中如何运作?

23:20 你有一辆车,一天大约有10小时左右的灵活性。那么不是在一开始就购买电力,而是随着价格在这10小时窗口内的发展,你能够再次出售能源并在稍后时刻购买,对吧?因为这是一个分层市场,有不同的时间跨度可以购买电力。其中一些是未来交付的期货，你可以在不同的时间购买电力。

23:58 例如,你可以购买从现在起一年后某个时刻的电力。显然,拥有一个可控资产，也就是电动汽车及其电池，如果你能控制充电,意味着你可以在实时之前决定你想用它做什么:是否仍然是保持和坚持你已经采购的能源量的最佳机会,比如说提前一年或提前一天,或者将其出售给能源市场上的其他人。

24:42 因为这会给你更高的价格,即使你知道之后还需要为那辆车购买电力。所以这是另一种灵活性，在你实际需要供电的时间上保持灵活。我在想,如果你提前很长时间购买,我理解这个例子,那么你确实可以重新调整你的计划。但为什么你会在日前市场以昂贵的价格购买,然后在日内市场以低价购买,如果你可以从一开始就在日前市场以低价购买呢?

25:20 所以这也部分是对冲,因为显然在日内市场你无法提前知道所有价格。所以大多数能源交易员会有某种组合投资组合，其中一些是真正长期购买的量,但其他部分你在不同的时间尺度上购买,特别是对于可控资产来说就变得有趣了,尤其是在有斜坡上升的时刻，比如在晚峰开始的时候,或者当晚峰开始下降的时候，在那里你会得到有趣的效应,这也部分是因为。

26:02 批发电力价格的大部分动态,特别是作为交易量最大的主要市场的日前能源市场,是由天气塑造的。太阳能显然对价格有巨大影响,但正如我们都知道的,天气也有一定的不可预测因素,所以即使在短期内你也可能看到与预测的偏差。

26:36 可能会有比预期更多的阳光,或者可能只是多了一点云，风也是类似的，甚至在消费方面,需求可能与预期略有不同,所有这些基本上都奖励那些能够实时调整他们日前计划和其他提前计划的人。有道理。现在我们已经深入探讨了,但让我们先完成背景介绍。所以你在这，2015年，这已经是一家在做这个的公司了,而你参与了?是的。

27:14 所以我帮助他们开发产品并提供工程信息,与汽车制造商合作让他们加入这个平台,与能源供应商合作将其整合到他们面向用户的电动车充电方案中，不仅在荷兰,还有其他国家。这真的很吸引人,也很有趣。然后又到了一个时刻，我认为这在很多初创公司中都会发生,特别是在企业空间，有时在内部会有一些反复。

28:00 大公司内部,有时又有点在外部。当它必须回到大公司环境时,我退出了,我认为这也是我喜欢的一点自由，作为一个自由职业者,能够转向一个能带来新能量的新项目。有道理。所以我开始做其他事情。我还与电网运营商合作,帮助他们理解交通电气化对他们系统的价值以及如何与之互动。

28:40 他们的角色是什么,他们应该做什么,不应该做什么。配电网运营商,是的。从那以后,帮助多个参与者,无论是私人还是公共部门,帮助引导需要做什么才能尽可能有益地使用灵活性，基本上对所有相关方,无论是配电网,还是国家能源平衡,或者是想看到电费降低的用户,或者是寻求。

29:34 使充电基础设施的推广更高效的充电桩运营商,以及如何提高利用率等等。这很迷人，你有非常广泛的背景,从真正尝试为一个城市建立充电的运营商,到建立初创公司并很早就做智能充电,然后需要思考API端点的细节,再到非常广泛地思考政府需要做什么,DSO需要做什么等等。

30:08 所以是的,这使对话更加有趣,理解这个广泛而独特的背景。让我们从背景过渡到你目前的项目。如果你想分享一下你现在在想什么，你现在最关心的是什么，然后我们可以更详细地讨论用例,并讨论潜在的障碍和机会。我总是带来这些不同的视角。

30:43 我试图用它来推进某些可能没有像应该那样受到关注的话题。其中一个话题是公共充电的可负担性,这对政策制定者来说是一个重要话题,显然对未来市场也很重要。但对于一些CPO来说,在他们当前的日常业务中,这并不总是被认为是一个话题,而这个话题也在塑造他们的市场。我试图推动他们理解他们在这个话题上工作有多重要,因为它。

31:36 塑造着未来市场，为他们扩大未来市场，如果我们能够创建一个让每个用户都能转向电动车的系统。因为公共充电的高成本特别可能成为其他用户群体的障碍。所以总是存在这些反馈循环。公共充电的一些高成本，在成本方面,意思不是充电桩运营商收取的高价格,而是他们端的高成本，是与许可相关的软成本。

32:20 规划,还有电网连接的成本,硬件成本和软件系统的成本。所有这些都是可能导致他们需要向用户收取更高价格的因素,这可能导致较低的利用率,进而导致较低的营业额和收入,或者也导致较低的可融资性，所以这也可能影响这些CPO扩展的速度,因为他们无法在合适的条件下获得合适的融资。所以一切都是相连的。

33:10 我试图帮助他们理解可以按下哪些按钮,他们能影响什么,以及他们需要向政策制定者、监管机构和电网运营商提出什么要求,以帮助塑造对CPO有利、同时也对社会有利的成本结构，因为如果你启用更灵活的方式,就能降低电网建设成本。

33:48 与电网合作的方式。所以这可能是非确定性容量协议,可能是通过本地灵活性市场的灵活性机制,或者可能是采用时变网络电价。所有这些都有助于CPO的商业模式,同时也可能有助于降低用户的充电价格,这又能让新的用户群体实现电动化,从而扩大市场，所以使用量更高。

34:25 公共充电市场的需求更多,所以公共充电市场增长,这让每个人都更感兴趣。对我来说很合理。那么smart charging的作用是什么，我们就叫它smart charging,或者智能能源管理,或者灵活性，我们就统一叫它flex吧。Flex最简单。在CPO可负担性这个广泛问题中,flex的作用是什么?它是首要问题吗,还是你认为还有其他杠杆?

34:58 它的重要性有多大,为什么CPO不愿意花更多时间来实现它?我认为，不要一次涉及太多路径，这总是多种措施的组合。不同层面的flex对降低成本真的很重要。这些措施中有些可能减少10%的成本,有些可能是5%,还有些可能是20%,但正是所有这些的组合。

35:39 最终有助于塑造可负担性,也有助于塑造一些公共充电网络的商业案例和可行性。所以flex很重要,因为它让用户在基本层面上能够获取我们在某些时段大量拥有的低成本可再生能源，这是可以获取的价值的主要部分。另一大块价值在于避免电网峰值,这也可能是这些可再生能源的另一面。

36:26 注入电网时,如果我们有一种机制,在有太阳能光伏发电的同时也有相同数量的消费。尽可能本地化,这也有助于避免电网上的一些峰值。但公共充电和私人充电之间也有联系。所以现场能源管理是降低电动化成本的关键杠杆。如果你能够智能地使用现场拥有的容量，比如如果你有一个商业车队的停车场，保持在某些边界内可以为你节省相当多的电网成本。

37:17 如果你能够消费你在现场生产的电力,与此相关的好处也很显著。所以我会说,没有flex,电动化肯定不会像它本可以达到的那样可负担。我认为要让电动化发挥作用,flex是减少摩擦的东西。但这样看来参与其中似乎是理所当然的。那么，当你说你需要说服CPO并与监管机构合作时，实际的话题、实现它的障碍是什么?

37:59 嗯,这非常复杂。即使是我有时也很难完全理解某个机制或监管是如何运作的,而且在既定政策目标之间也存在相当大的滞后。可能会有政策变化、法律变化或监管变化,但可能要到几年后才会生效，或者实际上可能是一个变化,然后需要,比如说,DSO提出一个基于市场的机制来为本地电网采购灵活性。

38:49 然后可能是这个要求在2027年1月1日生效。然后DSO,本地电网运营商,开始调查这可能如何实现。也许他们半年后有一份内部报告。也许他们有一轮咨询，希望他们与相关方进行咨询,但有时没有。他们发布一些东西。监管机构审查它。然后被确定,然后机制可能又过一年才上线,所以到那时可能已经是2028年了。

39:32 但结果发现,对于市场上的一些实际参与者，我们以充电桩运营商或停车场运营商为例，这是一个不符合他们工作方式的机制,或者灵活性的概念与他们心中的概念不同。或者它要求他们在与他们习惯使用的完全不同的时间尺度上进行预测。这么多问题,这么多话题。

40:12 我想到一件事，你可能与Martijn有很多互动,向他们的优秀报告致敬,他们试图跟踪所有不同的杠杆以及各国的状态。这是非常出色的工作。你还使用其他类似的资源来跟踪这种复杂性,以某种方式简化和结构化它吗?

40:42 我做的一些项目涉及这种分析,试图找出事物如何运作、市场条件是什么,并将其整合在一起。因为这真的非常困难,即使在国家内部也真的很难。德国有800个DSO的例子，但还有其他国家,比如瑞典。瑞典也有,我不知道,150个DSO,可能更多,它们有不同的电价结构。

41:18 我认为这是一件好事。我们开始这次对话时谈到有这些细分角色，履行真正有价值的细分角色的公司。一个细分角色是,例如,能够提供特定地区网络电价的准确描述。作为一个CPO,你想部署充电桩,但如果德国有800个DSO,你如何知道网络电价结构有什么差异?所以有一些参与者能够帮助他们。

42:04 将这些信息导入他们的系统,例如这可以帮助形成投资决策,或帮助他们配置某个站点的能源管理。是的。既然我们谈到这里,也许你可以详细说明一下你认为灵活性为车队和充电站运营商带来的价值池,以及你认为最大潜力在哪里?这样我们可以更深入地探讨有潜力的领域,而不是在你看来不太相关的话题上失去重点。

42:48 是的。所以我认为最主要的杠杆最终是能够跟随发电。能源转型这个更广泛的话题,是从发电跟随需求的系统进行转型，我们正在远离可控的、基本上是需求跟随型的火电厂。我们转向可预测但具有时变特性的能源,主要由天气决定,正如我之前所说。所以我们需要需求来跟随供应。

43:32 如果你能够跟随这种供应,那就是你获得低成本电气化、低成本脱碳的途径。能够做到这一点,我认为最终是你拥有的最大杠杆。但有一个很大的"但是"，电网的问题。电网容量不是无限的。电网不同层级的容量,特别是在你连接充电器或充电站的电网接入点,容量是有限的。不同时段也有不同的价值,所以其中一些时段可能。

44:16 仍然需要扩建电网,这样你才能获得更多跨欧洲传输的可再生电力。最终整个欧洲都会受益,如果我们在整个大陆有更好的建设。例如,如果西班牙可以通过互联线使用一些来自丹麦的风电。

44:41 所以最终还有很多工作要做,但在我们达到拥有所需的互联线,或在特定站点拥有可能需要的容量之前,还有短期需求,就是要保持在容量限制内并能够调整负荷曲线。所以这是在将能源市场与本地电网连接和本地电网条件进行叠加,然后它就变成了一个多输入优化问题,对吧?

45:17 是的,多标准优化也是我们经常思考的。有一件事我很想听听你的看法,我发现在更广泛的社区中还没有被充分理解,那就是每个人都在谈论削峰或管理峰值。但我认为峰值背后的本质还没有被完全理解。特别有趣的是,如果你仔细想想,有削峰,基本上是试图创造基础负荷,然后还有灵活性,它试图创造峰值并移动到一个在成本方面有利的时间窗口。

45:58 或者在电网拥堵方面有利。那么你如何看待这种表面上的矛盾?我们将如何在短期内管理这个问题?我们最终会摆脱这种激励大量削峰的僵化电网费用结构吗?据我了解,目前最大的成本之一就是这个千瓦峰值,它被随机取用一年,而没有以智能方式考虑该地区的拥堵程度。

46:34 是的,我认为这仍然是我们目前所处阶段的关键挑战之一。许多人理解并非每个峰值都有相同的影响,所以峰值可能在不同时间出现,有时充电峰值或需求峰值实际上可以对电网非常有利,如果它与供应峰值重合的话。正如我所说,例如,如果你在同一网络上有一部分可能有。

47:05 让我们在这一刻暂停一下,因为我觉得你说得太好了。正如你所说,人们在削峰时如此自豪,而恰恰存在不同种类的峰值。我们应该更多地谈论峰值的质量。峰值有一个范围,有时削峰是好的,但有时你削峰恰恰做了错误的事，你应该创造峰值,对吧?

47:27 是的,我认为这也是我们正在挣扎的问题,因为一些早期的电网电价或电网电价中的需量费用实际上产生了与它们试图实现的目标相反的效果。所以它现在可能削平了峰值,但随后你会在稍后时间有一个次级峰值,这可能实际上是一个新问题或更大的问题。

47:50 我认为那些制定这些电价的人，配电系统运营商和监管机构，仍然需要看到更多证据。我认为这也许也是我向许多已经在塑造这种灵活性的市场参与者发出的呼吁:展示、讲述和演示释放电动汽车充电的灵活性，坚持这个话题，如何真正有利于电网管理峰值类型和提供所需的峰值质量。我昨天实际上，你提到这个真是太好了,我需要讲这个。

48:36 我正在与来自加州的能源专员交谈,我分享了这个例子。我有点像播客极客,你可能已经猜到了,所以我看了Lex Fridman对Jensen Huang的采访。真正让我印象深刻的一件事是,三个小时里他们谈论了你能想象到的所有AI相关话题，你可能也在密切关注AI的发展。然后Fridman问了很多问题,最后Jensen说:有什么我应该问你的吗?他说,有,我们应该讨论。

49:10 这件事现在是我脑海中最重要的:我们如何管理数据中心的峰值?我当时想,哦。然后他真的在谈论我们刚才讨论的内容。所以这是AI发展最关键的事情之一，现在能源如何定价,数据中心如何根据它们设计的峰值获得批准,以及我们如何在管理AI负载方面具有灵活性。我觉得这很引人注目，这正是我一直在做的工作。所以是的。

49:43 我们需要，所以这也是对所有听众的一个呼吁。呼吁是什么?我们需要与配电系统运营商(DSO)对话,需要与监管机构对话,与联邦网络管理局(Bundesnetzagentur)对话,与各个协会对话。是的,没错，展示和证明你能做什么,你能够转移多大的负荷量,以及你能够

50:18 折叠和塑造成适合电网的充电负荷形态。我认为这需要被量化，不仅是在负荷量方面,也在质量方面:有哪些时间段可用,你如何交付,甚至是长期来看,你如何避免长期的电网投资,但也包括短期内如何帮助在真正的本地层面实现平衡。我认为

50:53 配电系统运营商需要看到更多这方面的内容,并能够将其作为可靠的资源来依赖。我认为你们中的一些人，比如你提到的Smarten，在布鲁塞尔做了很棒的工作,向欧洲层面的政策制定者指出并量化这一点,展示这些。是的,灵活性是整个灵活性行业能够提供的资源。这就是它能为电网和能源系统提供的，在避免电网成本的节约方面,或者在能够获取系统上更多低成本发电方面。

51:37 但如果电网结构只是老旧的,还没有适应新系统,那么要提供它如何支持电网的证明点仍然很困难,对吧?你说得对。也许你可以举荷兰的例子,因为荷兰一直是一个在我们讨论的问题上一方面相当创新和领先的国家。其次,也特别受到影响。我只想向Leonard Farahani致敬,他也是这个话题的一位非常好的专家。

52:06 他昨天在ICNC上分享了荷兰的地图现在如何变成红色,意味着现在完全拥堵了。所以也许你可以讨论一下荷兰试图解决这个问题的方式?是的。我认为荷兰正在发生的事情真的很吸引人,因为你看到了一些不同的方法。是的,有一张荷兰地图在获取新电网连接方面完全是红色的,红色意味着在该位置可能无法获得

52:44 固定容量分配。但显然,为什么你需要一年365天、每天24小时在电网连接点上拥有相同的容量?所以如果你能够灵活，显然这是我们讨论过的，如果你有电动汽车,你可能是灵活的。有办法绕过它;例如,你可能在冬季的晚间高峰期根本不需要容量。所以在数据方面更加精细化是真正需要的。

53:24 这在目前仍然有点缺失。所以你看到的地图基本上是二元的，是的,可能,或者不,不可能，但中间有很多细微差别。那么如果你有不同的需求曲线会怎样?可能会有更多选择。这是欧洲政策制定者实际上试图向各国立法者解释的:我们需要一个能够提供这种精细化电网信息的系统。所以拥有精细化的可见性，意味着位置、时间和电网层级，

54:05 电网的拥堵程度,或可用容量有多少,可以帮助开发商找到他们需要的位置或解决方案,这也可能包括固定式储能电池来克服问题,但也可能意味着实施某种充电需求曲线。这是一个要素。

54:32 另一个要素是:激励已经在电网上的灵活用户的机制有多好?因为这张地图只是在谈论谁在排队等待接入电网,但显然大部分是那些已经在电网上的，那些已经进入该系统的。所以可以把它比作游乐场的碰碰车:有人在排队等待进入,他们进不去,而有些人已经在里面开着了。

55:16 你还需要与他们合作来克服一些交通堵塞。在这方面,关键是配电系统运营商为那些实际上能够提供灵活性的人设置的机制有多容易获取。我看到了巨大的发展,特别是在过去几年和几个月，从某种

55:42 不可用的状态,到主要针对真正大型商业和工业用户的灵活性机制,再到现在已经到达一个点,分布式灵活性，来自单个电动汽车,也由移动服务提供商和聚合商提供，能够向电网提供灵活性。

56:11 所以,明确一下,它在荷兰现在已经大规模运作了吗?它也正在今年秋季进入一个新阶段,那里有一个新的市场机制,专门允许分布式能源资源，连接在低压层级的分布式灵活性，也参与灵活性市场。

56:37 所以如果我是荷兰的一名电动汽车驾驶员,我在家或在公共充电桩插上充电器,那么我就可以参与配电系统运营商的拥堵管理,而且你有降低的费用，目前是的。所以有公司能够为你提供这种接入,作为驾驶员向你提供这个,同时也向电网提供这种灵活性。

57:07 好的,这对其他国家来说已经是很好的启发了。那么荷兰能够做到这一点需要什么，其他国家正在面临的障碍是什么,而荷兰已经成功跨越了?所以我想说,也是市场上的一些创新者展示了技术可能性,同时也展示了车队的价值。

57:38 他们已经可以利用他们能够解锁的那种灵活性。所以那些早期参与者，向 Deaf Power 致敬,他们和 Deaf Power 的一些客户,我们在播客中采访过他们的 Michael Johans，他们一直在非常努力地大规模展示这种机制如何运作。通过这种展示,他们基本上也说服了电网运营商:是的,这是一种真正能够为他们的目标和需求做出贡献的机制。所以我认为这也是一个很好的例子

58:21 再次展示和讲述你能做什么,并解释你也可以为自己创造一个市场，当然,不仅仅是为你自己,而是为市场上的每个人。但这需要，比如说,让我们以 Deaf Power 为例，也需要充电运营商愿意配合。Deaf Power 不能单独完成;他们必须首先能够展示它,还要找到愿意合作的充电运营商,可能还有愿意合作的配电系统运营商。所以这需要

58:52 几个利益相关者来进行展示。对,有时候他们需要时间来理解对他们有什么好处。我认为这种理解正在慢慢形成，充电运营商也是如此，他们单独无法获取的灵活性是有价值的,因为他们没有直接接触,比如说,司机的渠道。我们处在一个系统中,显然我们希望具有互操作性,我们希望有漫游功能,所以你想为每个电动车司机提供访问权限。

59:28 但你真的想要与每个电动车司机的需求互动吗,还是可以有一个中间层来简化这种沟通?所以我认为越来越清楚的是,协作也为整个价值链带来了很多好处。是的,绝对的，我们百分之百需要在各个层面上进行更多协作来实现这些事情,否则如果有一个参与者不配合,价值也可能会被卡住,对吧?也许，这也是我进行过多次对话的另一个话题，

1:00:09 德国有时极具争议的 Durchleitungs 模型:直通或过境模型,其中充电桩运营商负责充电桩运营,但不一定是负责能源供应的那一方,尤其不负责该能源的平衡。对,是的。我认为最终对充电运营商来说,其中一个有趣的好处是,它可以从他们那里卸下一些更复杂的责任,帮助他们为充电运营创建一个更可行、可投资、可融资的商业案例。

1:00:52 在能源方面,需求概况以及能够预测能源需求，最终也许还能通过智能充电,也许将来甚至是双向充电来塑造充电需求，在一个车队内,一个聚合车队内,这就成为移动服务提供商的任务,或者与实际车辆联系更紧密的人的任务。这最终带来的好处是你有更高的可预测性和更准确的概况，更少的不平衡。所以它帮助充电运营商,帮助消费者,最终帮助整个系统。

1:01:37 但它仍然很复杂,而且仍然需要再次展示,让每个人都理解这些好处将如何发挥作用。是的,这是一个复杂的话题,我认为很少有人，向 Knut 和我们在 Decarbonized 的朋友们致敬,他们一直在引领这个想法，能够解释它。我认为它仍然需要一些教育。也许我们可以详细说明一下。所以,目前设置的问题，分解一下,这样你就可以分享更多。

1:02:17 所以充电运营商是采购电力并将电力出售给移动服务提供商的人,移动服务提供商反过来向司机出售一定量的电力。而你建议的是,充电运营商采购并出售给移动服务提供商的电力，这部分消失了,它完全成为移动服务提供商的责任。对,到目前为止,对吧?然后,在当前模型中,充电运营商负责

1:02:51 灵活性的问题是,他们可能无法像移动服务提供商那样影响司机，无论是在预测需求还是调整平衡方面。我理解得对吗?对,特别是因为他们大多只能在充电会话开始后才能影响它。但我认为其中一部分更有趣:提前知道充电需求、数量,也许引导司机使用某个位置。所以在实际插入充电站之前,有更多步骤和更多数据点。

1:03:41 因此,在当前设置中,对充电运营商来说,通常只有在有人插入后才开始,你可以进行能源管理，这仍然有用。但还有这个更高级的层面,就是提前知道,这就与我们提到的能源交易和预测主题相关。这需要关于那个特定司机的更丰富的信息。但要扮演魔鬼代言人，这也是我想问你的一个问题，关于移动服务提供商角色的发展也存在一个开放性问题。

1:04:24 所以实际上,上一集我们邀请了 Karika 和 Isam,他们是创始人,他们使充电运营商能够广播价格和设定价格,从而在某种程度上绕过移动服务提供商。而且还有直接支付授权,我想是到上半年,所以你就不需要通过移动服务提供商应用付款了。难道不能在完全相反的一面完成,你看到充电运营商承担更多责任吗?你怎么看?嗯,我们两者都需要,我认为充电运营商应该能够向移动服务提供商广播他们的价格。

1:05:06 特别是来自荷兰,我有时很难理解为什么这行不通,因为在荷兰,充电站运营商(CPO)拥有价格端点是更为常见的，我们可以深入讨论技术细节，但他们会将电价信息实时发布给移动服务提供商(MSP)。在德国市场,有时感觉这样的系统就像是,我不知道,乌托邦一样。在很多方面都是乌托邦,但有时感觉定价被当作是一种……

1:05:51 我们可以用一个刻板印象来形容,不知道怎么说,就像是需要签署并在公证处锁定,然后放进保险库,在CPO和MSP之间保持固定，而且是保密的，保持多年。我认为这不符合当今的市场和需求。所以是的,我们需要建立机制,包括漫游中心和漫游协议,能够实现实时定价,以及预测定价和历史定价。我们确实应该在这方面扩展,从CPO到MSP。

1:06:34 所以是的,这是我们需要的。然后在MSP方面,他们需要能够处理这些价格信息,因为我也看到市场上的一个局限性,即一些参与者无法处理不同的价格，例如,他们无法处理来自CPO的同一充电会话中的两个价格。由于软件限制,他们只能为每个CPO使用单一价格。这是软件限制,而我总是,你知道……

1:07:09 可能比其他人更乐观,对软件能实现什么更有信心。在实践中这更复杂,我认为他们在某些方面可能是对的。但我确实认为,能够处理不同价格、不同时间、不同地点，作为软件开发者我可以明确表态，在人工智能时代,这应该不是什么大问题。不应该是大问题。所以回答这个问题,我认为无论如何都需要解决这个问题。

1:07:39 是的,临时定价，这也是担忧所在，欧洲替代燃料基础设施法规今天已经要求非歧视性定价,即不因不同用户或不同支付方式而歧视。这已经成为一个问题,特别是在德国,一些参与者对使用自己应用程序支付系统的用户和临时支付或使用漫游合作伙伴的用户收取的价格差异巨大。我认为这不应该存在。

1:08:23 所以最终我认为市场需要振作起来并解决这个问题。也许这里那里采取一点法律行动可能有助于塑造这一点,可能还需要一点政策和监管澄清，也许其中一些可能在现行法规中得到缓和。这是一部分。但第二部分，即使在那里,我认为MSP需要发展成为一个功能更丰富的服务提供商,而不仅仅是在月底提供发票。

1:09:11 还要提供增值服务,告诉你什么时候充电最好,哪个地点充电最好,我们如何帮助你进行路线规划,我们如何通过推动你来帮助你获得最优价格，这也是DEW Power一直在塑造的。一旦你到达充电站,特别是那些停车时间较长的,我们能否将部分充电需求从高峰时段转移到低谷时段?是的,非常有趣。

1:09:48 就你刚才举的灵活性例子再说一下:在荷兰的这些例子中,是否只有配电系统运营商(DSO)在影响如何实现灵活性,还是也结合了日内价格?是的,也结合了日内和日前价格。所以是将这些叠加起来,在那里你需要一个能够针对多个输入进行优化的系统,这些输入有时显然具有冲突的目标和价格。

1:10:24 在这里,如果你能扩大规模并拥有一个聚合的用户车队,那会有所帮助,所以你的充电曲线和充电需求可能与我的不同,但将我们两个合并到一个平衡区域可以带来这些好处。那么，你开电动车,对吧?如果你在荷兰今天去交流充电桩,作为电动车司机你能省多少钱?

1:10:55 比如一晚上，或者我不知道它是如何运作的,你是否只能在特定时刻每天做一次，是的,我碰巧在我街上的公共充电站使用DEW Power的smart charging解决方案之一,它降低了我的充电费用。比如说我需要充电原本要付20欧元,它能给我大约2欧元的优惠,所以是10%,这真的很不错。

1:11:32 所以并不是说它变成了免费的,因为显然还有成本。但这很可观,特别是如果你看全年的话。这也只是开始,这也是V2G或双向充电的一个很好的过渡,它使整个事情变得更加复杂,但也更加有趣。圣杯,是的，在那里你可能需要改造,所以这始终是关键挑战。让我们先解决那个问题,技术方面。

1:12:06 技术挑战，我猜如果你想在家里做V2G,你需要改造充电桩,就是你正在使用的同一个充电桩,是的。所以这是改造的一个关键挑战。在荷兰是否已经有这样做的计划了,因为你们总是超前思考?嗯,是有计划的,我会说在某些充电站、某些招标中已经有了要求,要求具备双向充电能力,但实际上……

1:12:41 太早了。所以我会说这是一笔搁浅的投资,因为如果你看技术标准是如何演进的，基础是ISO 15118-20,现在有了修订版1,更清楚地定义了交流双向充电将如何工作。欧洲电网规范也在制定中,这些规范明确了汽车、汽车中的逆变器和充电站之间的责任分工。所以如果你看一下,其中一些可能太早了,因为我们首先需要实现双向充电的首次部署和第一个市场,然后才能真正

1:13:30 强制推行并扩大这项功能。我也认为V2G和双向充电的前景有时会掩盖我们在单向智能充电方面已经拥有的更直接、更大的机会。所以你认为单向充电还有太多工作要做,我们不应该过早考虑双向充电?嗯,两者都需要,因为我们仍然需要研究双向充电,还有许多障碍需要解决，其中一些特别涉及到

1:14:16 如何进入市场,如何获取价值,如何确保电网运营商能够真正利用这种灵活性,并奖励那些有助于V2G商业案例可行性的灵活性。那么你如何看待乌得勒支?我认为从V2G规模化的角度来看,这是世界上最先进的项目之一。你们也从中受益过吗,或者说限制在哪里,或者他们今天是如何使其运作的?嗯

1:14:54 他们通过共享汽车车队使其运作,所以这是一个封闭车队,这很好,因为我认为这使得它复杂得多，是同一类型的OEM,同一个汽车制造商。而且基本上只有一个车队运营商,所以你可以从他们的系统中提取所有关于不同车辆何时需要使用的数据。你有一个单一的信息来源。如果要包括私家车,显然会变得复杂得多,所以它不适用于私家车。

1:15:33 它适用于封闭车队,在那里它是有效的。我认为这也是它已经很有趣的地方，再说家庭:你有一辆车、一栋房子、一个充电器。我认为这些是双向充电的首批用例,就在今天,2026年、2027年,我们将看到行动和收益。非常酷。但他们有一种车型和一种充电器型号,具备所有前面提到的

1:16:07 所需的电网规范和标准,我猜现场的DSO或公用事业公司也是，只有一个参与者,对吧?所以DSO为他们创建了进入灵活性机制的途径,因此他们基本上能够交易这些容量,并因其在转移负载或基本上在高峰时段放电方面拥有的灵活性而获得奖励。就是我们之前讨论的DSO和日内市场的组合。这是一个非常有趣的例子。我的意思是,我最终需要去乌得勒支。

1:16:56 还有世界上最大的自行车停车场,对吧?我是说,如果人们骑自行车,他们的汽车灵活性会更高，如果你不需要你的车,车就一直停在那里。最终可以把它当作电池储能来使用,是的。那么,关于地理位置的最后一个问题:除了荷兰,你认为哪个国家在灵活性方面,特别是在电动汽车方面真正领先?嗯,丹麦很有意思，有多少电动汽车充电生态系统参与者在提供

1:17:33 向电网、实际上是向TSO提供服务，到目前为止我们还没有谈过TSO,对吧。我觉得很有意思的是,在丹麦充电的这么多电动汽车,无论是在工作场所、住宅还是公共场所,都被聚合起来,这些容量被用来提供一些实时服务。是的,非常酷。据我记忆,丹麦在做这类事情方面也非常早。是的,也许，我是说还有很多话题,但我想我们需要做其他几期节目了。

1:18:19 所以为了将节目保持在一定长度:除了我们在开头讨论的内容，可负担性和CPO定价，对车队和私人充电有意义、你认为值得强调、你也觉得特别令人兴奋、车队应该关注的话题还有哪些?我认为有两件事。对于车队来说,能源管理、电网容量、我们讨论的各种能源市场的整个话题

1:18:58 他们可能从未听说过或从未接触过,所以存在巨大的差距。不一定是说他们需要成为能源专家,但强烈需要市场角色来帮助车队驾驭这个领域，或者不仅仅是驾驭,而是真正成为其中的积极参与者。所以这是一个非常重要的市场角色:成为复杂性之间的桥梁。我们触及了这种复杂性的一点表面,但它甚至更复杂。

1:19:46 在物流方面,我不是车队调度或路线规划等方面的专家，这是另一种复杂性,你显然也看到了对解决方案的需求。将这些结合起来是我们需要的,而"我们需要"是指作为一个社会,因为能够利用这种灵活性潜力真正降低了车队运营商的成本。它真正兑现了电气化的TCO改善承诺。

1:20:32 它是由电气化和启用灵活性实现的,但它也为能源系统中的每个人降低了一些成本，甚至还没有谈到电气化和摆脱柴油的所有环境和健康益处。真正能够使用灵活性是对车队运营商和更广泛的社会都有益的事情。所以换句话说,这是一个行动号召:嘿,车队运营商们,别担心,即使我们暗示了许多听起来太复杂的话题。

1:21:15 顺便说一句,像我们这样的人正在为你们简化这些事情,如果你们真的敢于现在就参与到这些类型的话题中,对你们有巨大的潜力,对社会也是如此,对吧?我也想对电动出行领域的所有市场参与者再次强调,回到你最开始引用的那句话。

1:21:38 他们需要定义自己想要做什么,或者如何与其他能够提供该价值的方建立连接,因为我认为很多这种价值也可以通过协作来实现。所以我们需要建立一个更具协作性的系统,一个能够良好沟通的系统,我说的沟通既包括技术层面也包括商业层面。我们需要能够连接多个构建模块,而这些市场角色或市场参与者中的一些

1:22:20 需要考虑他们是想自己做所有事情,这可能有一定的好处,还是需要专业的参与者来提供服务。好的,说到这里,我认为关于这个协作的行动号召,我们都非常相信在所有层面的协作,包括技术和商业。我只想说谢谢,希望我们以后能再做更多。Yap提出了一个关于峰值的观点,值得更多的关注和细致分析。并非每个峰值都同样糟糕。

1:22:59 与太阳能峰值同步的充电峰值实际上可以帮助电网,而电网费率中一些早期的需求费用只是简单地压平一个峰值,却在之后创造了第二个更大的峰值。他对行业的呼吁是展示并说明,量化你能转移多少负荷量以及你能塑造得多好,因为电网运营商需要证据,才能将灵活性视为他们可以依赖的资源。我也很喜欢他讲的那个已经很实际的好处。

1:23:31 Yap在自己街道的公共充电桩上使用smart charging服务,每次充电大约能从20欧元中省下2欧元，单次看起来不多,但一年下来就很可观了。关于vehicle-to-grid,他的态度非常清醒务实。它在像乌得勒支这样的封闭车队中已经可行,有一个汽车制造商和运营商,一个数据来源。但它还不能完全适用于私家车,而且围绕它的兴奋可能会掩盖更大的机会,比如单向smart charging。所以如果你从这期节目中记住一件事,那就是去用数据展示电网灵活性实际上能做什么。感谢收听。

0:11 Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets. Yap Berger traveled from Utrecht to Berlin for this episode by electric coach, with exactly one charging stop at a truck charging hub near Hanover. Long-distance electric coach travel is no longer a story about the future. Yap has worked in e-mobility for 15 years.

1:01 He started at the city of Amsterdam on the first public on-street charge points, back when roaming meant operators emailing each other spreadsheets of identifiers and charge data records. Today, he works independently with grid operators, charge point operators, and policymakers and technologists, increasingly at the European level, translating for regulators what innovators can already do and translating back to the market what regulation could do for them. We talk about why the grid map of the Netherlands is almost entirely red for new connections.

1:36 And why that matters far less if you're flexible, about the new Dutch mechanism opening this autumn to distributed flexibility at low voltage, and about the cost loop that keeps public charging expensive. Enjoy the conversation with one real smart charging expert. Hey, how are you today? Hi, doing well. Still a little bit tired from the festival that is ICNC. Yes, we just had it the last 3 days, right? Right, right, so that's lots of talks, talks, talks, meetings, listening, chatting.

2:14 Yeah, and maybe to give the listeners - before we of course learn more about your background - let's just discuss it quickly. So what's your main takeaway, or do you have any thoughts that were particularly on your mind after the event? Well, the event grows every year, so I'm always impressed by how many more people are in the e-mobility ecosystem and come here. What I found fascinating, especially this year - the theme was about smart charging at scale - but I found it fascinating how many

2:49 actors and companies are active and specializing in specific aspects of that, whether it comes from software, operations, analysis, or even financing of flexibility. It's fascinating to see how that grows. And I think looking back, even just maybe 5 years ago, you would have sort of the single company trying to do it all and bringing it all into one system, and now you see there really is a need for, and there's really a growth market for, those that are able to specialize and really deliver upon

3:28 the promise of unlocking flexibility, which is something I believe is really, really needed. Yeah, totally, and maybe just to also - as we will probably use some jargon - we can already start discussing some things and make sure we have a framework. So flexibility, or call it energy management, or call it smart charging,

3:52 sometimes being used interchangeably, are definitely growing as concepts and as different nuances and niches in the market, with different players coming along. And I think that's important and it's right. I also agree with Orlin, who was having a keynote as the main sponsor of the event and the founder of Apeco, where his keynote's title was "get big, get niche, or get out." I like it because I think there's something to it - that you really need to break down this complexity of the topics we'll dive deep into.

4:29 You need to have specialists really understanding that and owning it. Yeah, fully, fully agree. Yeah. So I also attended, obviously, as you can hear, and yeah, also just a few thoughts beyond that. I think it's incredible how it grew. I think Habje, who is the organizer, is doing a great job there. I'm not sure if there's a much larger conference around this particular topic than that one in the world, so it's all impressive to be at the airport as well, organizing it in the middle of Berlin.

5:03 What I find impressive is how much it's also a networking event plus a high-quality conference. And sometimes it's quite hard, because the networking obviously is so important that you sometimes just miss some of the conference parts. I'm also happy that all of those are being recorded and you can watch them later to catch up. I also watch them on YouTube, and it's probably not for the very newcomers in the

5:32 EV industry, but even then I think you can do some hand-holding and it's a very open networking environment where you can see people just talking and exchanging knowledge and updates, and others spending time watching the speakers live as well. I think it's sometimes also good to meet the person in real life, but of course it's great that you can watch them all on YouTube. Yeah, and what I found

6:02 especially useful - there's a main stage, an innovation stage, a tech stage, and some of the sponsors also have their own stages - so there's a whole range of topics being discussed. Depending on what your interest is, whether it's really the technical details of communication, or whether it's about financing, or whether it's about actual use cases, there is something for everyone in the program. Totally. This year, what I found super interesting was also the African session.

6:34 There were a few very important stakeholders from Africa that attended, and it was interesting to get a very close view and discussion after their presentation and the podium discussion on how Kenya is basically using a lot of electric buses for their operations. I talked with the one in charge, and they were agreeing when I was asking if it's the right moment now that developing countries are leapfrogging ICE vehicles with e-mobility, like they did with previous technologies. And they were saying, yeah, it's the right moment.

7:07 TCOs, costs alone - we don't really need regulation. It's a beautiful time to experience that, right? That's fascinating to see, and those are some of the learnings that you probably.

7:23 You need to be in the room and see the people discussing it to really understand and feel how important that change is. Buses are a good segue, and maybe we can close with that anecdote as well, so we don't spend too much time on the ICNC now, as we want to hear about your background and talk really about smart charging in more detail. You live in the Netherlands, right? And you came by bus, but not any bus. Tell us.

7:52 So this was an electric coach organised by Tandem Drive, a Dutch company that is basically a software layer for CPOs and MSPs in the EV space. They gathered a group of e-mobility people from the Netherlands, so we travelled from Utrecht to Berlin by electric coach. We had to charge one time in between because it has a practical range of around 600 kilometres, which is just short of the distance Utrecht–Berlin, so we stopped at a heavy-duty vehicle charging hub from Mayland close to Hanover.

8:35 Which was fascinating to see, also how much it is already in use by electric trucks. And obviously the coach being able to travel long distance electrically - it's no longer something for the distant future; it's something that can be done already today. I would expect maybe some of those operating commercial long-distance bus lines could start to use electric coaches. To be honest, I think in the first phase it would make most sense.

9:10 Doing things on a single charge, so all those trips that are within the battery range of the vehicle. But as we see continuous development of the charging infrastructure, the charging speed, and also charging locations - because you would need different amenities - this can change rapidly as well. Because as you already mentioned for the case of Kenya and other African countries, that applies in Europe as well obviously. The economics just make sense for electrifying. Yeah, very cool.

9:45 Yeah, I'm also following Flix actively and their opinions on the electrification rate that is possible. Cool that you experienced it firsthand. So let's dive in and learn more about you. Can you tell us about your background? We can also go a little bit back just so that we understand how you arrive at being the smart charging expert, as I've used to say a few times these days. So my first work in e-mobility started over 15 years ago already, so it feels like a long time saying that.

10:29 I worked for the city of Amsterdam at that time, and they were deploying the first public on-street EV charging points. I helped them shape the processes, the interaction with the user, but also the interaction with the relevant stakeholders - notably the grid operator. I became project leader, and together with the whole team we tendered for a public charging network. We did a second tender, and for that I had to learn and understand some of the technical standards, the concepts, the rules. But also many of these roles were still undefined at that time.

11:15 So together with others we had to find and define some of the interactions in that system. Just to mention, as we will probably discuss these roles - CPO, CPMS, MSP - all this jargon was not defined back in 2011. There were different names, and you didn't really have a clear division in those roles, CPO, MSP.

11:46 It wasn't as clearly defined. Most of the examples that were available, also from other countries like the US, were single-system networks built on the idea that all of it would be within one system - both the CPMS managing the charging stations, but also the user management and the billing. But we in Amsterdam wanted to have a system where you could have multiple charge point operators, and the user could have a single access token - at that time still the RFID cards that are still being used - to enable users to use a single access mechanism.

12:35 To unlock charging at different operators, whether it was a public charging operator in city A or a public charging operator in city B, but also including private charging. So we had to shape a system where you had these roles more clearly defined - who is operating the charging point and what does that entail: authentication, measuring, billing. But who to send the bill to?

13:08 That recipient would be the MSP, so they would take on information from various CPOs and ensure that it gets bundled into a single invoice for the driver, which also involved basically defining the concept of EV roaming. And from there on, obviously all things professionalised and there became dedicated roles also within roaming protocols for that. Yeah, because Hubject was not created in 2011 - I don't remember. We had a few episodes about Hubject with the founders, but I can't recall - did you use them already back then? No, no, no.

13:54 So all of this predates OCPI and predates other roaming hubs or protocols at the time. At the very early stage, roaming meant that there was a whitelist in a spreadsheet that was shared between operators, and that was the basis for sending other spreadsheets with

14:19 charge data records. So knowing which identifier charged at which charging station - we're really talking spreadsheets, CSV files, Excels that were sent by email around. Really, really basic. I'm glad that system has since then obviously evolved and has become much more professional, secure, much more efficient and standardized. Interesting. And so then from this experience, you went to do what? So I went to work with various companies. I also became a freelancer now 11 years ago, working in this space.

15:04 So that is my company, and I work for different organizations in the public space and private space. But more and more focusing on the EV grid integration topic, looking at it from the user perspective: how is the user being incentivized to provide flexibility in their charging session needs? How are they being informed? What are their benefits - also obviously financial benefits? What does that need in terms of interaction between the different actors? So obviously the user, MSP, CPO, but then also on the technical level, you get to the charging station.

16:01 The charging station might need to interact with other charging stations on the same site. There might be an energy management system on site that you want to use. There might be inputs, forecasts of energy production and energy prices that you might want to incorporate in that. And especially the past five years, I've been looking at that also from a more regulatory and policy perspective at the European level. So how is EU legislation helping to shape that market? How are European states deploying that at scale, and what is the market doing?

16:46 What are innovators doing, basically pushing the boundaries of existing frameworks? So I also sometimes try to describe it as: I try to translate to policymakers what the innovators already can do and the barriers they face, because they are at the edge of what is possible. They are the first ones running into barriers, so they can identify what needs to be changed in regulation or in policy to advance this topic. And also the other way around - there are many companies in this space that

17:30 sometimes struggle to understand what policy and regulation can do for them - not necessarily as a burden, as it's often perceived, but also sometimes shaping new opportunities. And just to understand, from this Amsterdam experience, how did you get to do this? I saw some of these experiences, but maybe you can elaborate already on

17:54 what were the key milestones that led you to do this. So, for instance, one of the first things I did as a freelancer was for an energy supplier in the Netherlands that had a basic idea of how to do EV smart charging using the connected car API - that was back in 2015. Electric vehicles on the road were becoming more like a computer where you have an API, which is a programming interface - I don't know how much we need to explain all those acronyms. Not too many, it's OK.

18:38 So at that time it was something novel that a car became much more than something for mobility, but also just like any internet-connected device - something you can exchange information with, send commands to. And that enabled this company to start and stop charging remotely on the vehicle. By linking that to the trading desk of that utility - being able to tap into short-term needs, maybe to start charging and thereby absorb some of the surplus, or maybe to pause charging to prevent being on the wrong side of the energy balance -

19:30 it obviously had a value for that utility, but a value large enough to carve out a piece of that to both finance the company and get the user on board. So they were receiving bonus payments for providing that flexibility and would see their energy bills reduced through the concept of smart charging. Very cool - and this is already in 2015. Just to be precise, and as I'd like us to get to that level of detail: did they use it for - and maybe also explain to the listeners, because we rarely discuss these types of topics -

20:15 there is an imbalance mechanism - I think that's what you were hinting at - an imbalance mechanism for utilities to basically keep the grids always stable at 50 Hz, and also in trades on the intraday market. There is a balance that needs to be held in the overall system, and so each participant, both producers and consumers, has an interest in - or actually is mandated to - forecast their

20:50 total amount of energy that they will produce or consume in a particular 15-minute slot. If they miss this forecast and cause an imbalance, then they have to pay a fine, and this is quite hefty. I don't know what the latest figures are and how this fine translated in 2015 and how it is evolving, but at least there is an incentive, as far as I know, still today. And it's rarely seen as one of the smart charging levers - it's mostly other topics we discuss, like peak shaving, so reducing grid fees.

21:31 Or participating in energy markets, just trading, so to say. Maybe I can elaborate on what was happening there and what's your view on imbalancing markets, right? So it was already one of the, let's call it one of the more advanced energy markets, being able to almost in real time adjust that energy balance. And there are multiple time spans, so there are multiple.

22:04 Moments where you trade electricity - maybe not as a user, but your energy supplier and their balanced responsible party, they forecast basically your energy need, and not only yours but from all their consumers, but also from the producers, and obviously we also have prosumers that are both. And the more accurate that forecast is, the better they can source energy, the better they can trade.

22:40 And all of that has a certain value, and some of that is not always as visible - so it could be directly in prices, but sometimes it's avoiding fines, as you say, or it could be because it enables you to sell a certain volume that you already bought in advance and sell that at a later time, so you also have a spread between two prices. The so-called virtual trades. Yes. So how - maybe because I never fully engaged in the virtual trades - as you bring it up, how would it work in practice?

23:20 You have a vehicle, you have 10 hours or so of flexibility in a day. Then instead of buying the electricity at the beginning, as prices develop in that 10-hour window, you're able to sell again the energy and buy it at a later moment, right? Because it's a layered market, so there are different time spans where you can buy electricity. Some of these are futures for future delivery - you can buy electricity at different times.

23:58 So for instance you could buy electricity for a certain moment in time a year from now. And obviously having a controllable asset - which are EVs, their batteries - if you can control the charging, means that you can, up to real time, decide what you want to do with that: whether it's still the best opportunity to keep and stick with the volume of energy that you already procured, let's say a year ahead or a day ahead, or to sell it to someone else in the energy markets.

24:42 Because that would give you a higher price, even knowing that you would need to buy electricity for that vehicle at a later point in time. So that's another type of flexibility - being flexible in when you actually need electricity to be delivered. I'm thinking, so I understand the example if you bought significant time ahead, then indeed you can readjust your planning. But why would you in a day-ahead buy at an expensive price and then in the intraday buy at the low price, if you can from the get-go in the day-ahead buy at the low price?

25:20 So it's also partly hedging, because obviously in the intraday you don't know all the prices in advance. So most energy traders would have some kind of a combined portfolio - some of that is really long-term volumes that are being bought, but other parts of that you buy at different time scales, and especially with controllable assets it becomes interesting, especially at the moment when there's a ramp-up - so at the beginning of the evening peak, or when the evening peak starts to fall again - there you get interesting effects, also partly because.

26:02 Most of the dynamics on the wholesale energy price, and especially the day-ahead energy market as the main market where the most volume is being traded, is shaped by weather. Solar obviously has a huge impact on prices, but as we all know, weather also has a certain unpredictable element to it, so even on the shorter term you might see deviations from that forecast.

26:36 There might be more sunshine than expected, or there might be just a little bit more clouds - similarly with wind - and even on the consumption side, demand might be a little bit different than expected, and all of that basically rewards those that are able to in real time adjust their plan from the day-ahead and other aheads. Makes sense. Now we're already deep diving, but let's finish off the background first. So you were in this - 2015 - was this already a company that was doing this, and you participated? Yes.

27:14 So I helped them develop the product and inform the engineering, work with carmakers to onboard them onto this platform, to work with energy suppliers to integrate this into their EV charging propositions to users - so not just in the Netherlands but also in other countries. Which was really fascinating and interesting to do. And then it became again sort of a moment - and I think that happens with a lot of startups, especially in the corporate space - sometimes there's a bit of back and forth being within.

28:00 The big corporate, and sometimes being a bit outside. And when it had to move back into the large corporate environment, I stepped out, and I think that's also a bit of the freedom that I like - being a freelancer, being able to then move on to a new project that gives new energy. Makes sense. So I started doing other things. I also worked with grid operators, helping them to understand what the value of electrification of transport is for their system and how to interact with it.

28:40 What their role is, what they should do, what they shouldn't do. Distribution grid operators, yes. And since then, helping multiple actors, whether that's private or public, helping to navigate what needs to be done to use the flexibility as beneficially as possible - basically for everyone involved, whether that's the distribution grid, or whether that's the national energy balance, or whether it's a user that wants to see his electricity bill reduced, or whether it's a charge point operator looking to.

29:34 Make the rollout of charging infrastructure more efficient, and how to increase the utilization rate, for instance. It's fascinating - you have a very broad background, also from being an operator really trying to set up charging for a city, to building a startup and doing smart charging very early on, and then needing to think in the details of an API being an endpoint, and then thinking very broadly about what the government needs to do, what the DSO needs to do, and so on.

30:08 So yeah, it makes the conversation even more interesting, understanding this broad, unique background. Let's take this segue from the background to what your current projects are. If you want to share a little bit what's on your mind - what is top of mind right now for you - then we can go into a little more detail on the use cases and discuss potential barriers and opportunities. I always sort of bring those different perspectives.

30:43 It's something I try to use to advance certain topics that might not be in the spotlight as much as they should be. So one of those topics is the affordability of public charging, which is a topic important to policymakers, and obviously it is important for a future market. But it's not always perceived as a topic for some of the CPOs in their current daily business today, whereas it's a topic that also shapes their market. I try to nudge them to understand how important it is that they work on the topic as well, because it.

31:36 Shapes the future market - it grows the future market for them - if we are able to create a system in which every user can switch to an electric vehicle. Because high cost of public charging specifically can be a barrier for other user groups. So there are always these feedback loops. Some of the high costs of public charging - on the cost side, meaning not the high prices charged by charge point operators, but the high costs they have on their end - are soft costs related to permitting.

32:20 To planning, but also the cost of grid connections, the cost of hardware, and the cost of software systems. All of that are factors that might lead to a higher price they need to charge users, which might lead to lower utilization, which then leads to lower turnover and lower revenues, or also lower bankability - so it might also impact the pace at which these CPOs can scale because they can't access the right financing on the right conditions. So it's all connected.

33:10 I try to help them understand what the buttons are they can press, what can they influence, and what do they need to ask policymakers, regulators, and grid operators to help shape their costs in a way that benefits the CPO, but also benefits society - because it would lower, for instance, the cost of grid build-out if you would enable more flexible.

33:48 Ways to work with the grid. So that could be in non-firm capacity agreements, it could be in flexibility mechanisms through local flexibility markets, or it could be with time-varying network tariffs. All of that helps the business case of a CPO, but also potentially helps bring down the charging price for the user, which then again enables electrification for new user groups, therefore grows the market - so higher usage.

34:25 More demand in the public charging market, so the public charging market grows, which makes it more interesting for everyone. Makes sense to me. So what's the role of smart charging - let's call it smart charging, or intelligent energy management, or flexible - let's just agree on calling it flex. Flex is the easiest. What's the role of flex within this broad question of affordability of CPOs? Is it the top issue, or do you think there are other levers?

34:58 What's the importance, and why are CPOs not willing to spend more time enabling that? I think - without going into too many paths at once - it's always a mix of measures. Flex at so many different levels is really important to bring down costs. Some of these measures might reduce 10% of costs, others might be 5%, and others might be 20%, but it's the combination of all of that.

35:39 That ultimately helps shape affordability and helps also shape the business case and viability of some of the public charging networks. So flex is important because it enables users, at the base level, to access the lower-cost energy from renewables that we have in abundance at certain times - that's the big chunk of value that can be accessed. The other big chunk of value is in avoiding peaks on the grid, which could also be the other side of the coin of those renewables being.

36:26 ingested into the grid, if we have a mechanism that at the same time that we have solar PV production also have the same amount of consumption. As localized as possible, that also helps avoid some of the peaks on the grid. But there's also the link between public charging and private charging. So on-site energy management is a key lever to bring down costs of electrification. If you're able to smartly use the capacity you have on the site - for instance if you have a depot in a commercial fleet - staying within certain boundaries can save you a considerable amount of grid cost.

37:17 If you're able to consume the electricity that you produce on site, there are related benefits to that that are significant. So I would say without the flex, electrification is definitely not as affordable as it could be. I think to make electrification work, flex is the thing that reduces friction. But so it seems like a no-brainer then to engage in it. So what's the - when you say you need to convince CPOs and work with the regulators - what are the actual topics, the hurdles, to make it happen?

37:59 Well, it's hugely complex. Even I sometimes struggle to fully understand how a certain mechanism works or how regulation works, and there's also a considerable amount of lag between stated policy goals. There might be a policy change, a law change, or a change to a regulation, but it might not enter into force until several years later - or it might actually be a change that then requires, as an example, a DSO to come up with a market-based mechanism for procuring flexibility for the local grid.

38:49 And then it might be that this is a requirement that enters into force January 1st, 2027. Then the DSO, the local grid operator, starts investigating how that could be. Maybe they have an internal report half a year later. Maybe they have a consultation round - hopefully they have a consultation round with the relevant parties, but sometimes not. They publish something. The regulator looks at it. Then it's being set, and then the mechanism maybe goes live again a year later, so it might already be 2028 by that time.

39:32 But then it turns out that for some of the actual actors in the market - let's stick with the example of a charge point operator or a depot operator - it's a mechanism that doesn't fit the way they work, or the concept of flexibility is a different concept than what they have in mind. Or it requires them to make forecasts on a wholly different time scale than they are used to working with. So many questions, so many topics.

40:12 One thing that comes to mind - you've probably engaged a lot with Martijn, shout out to their good reports where they try to keep track of all the different levers and the status by country. That's tremendous good work. Are there other sources like that that you use to keep track of this complexity, to simplify and structure it somehow?

40:42 Some of the projects I do involve this kind of analysis, trying to find out how things work, what the market conditions are, and bringing that together. Because it's really, really hard, and even within countries it's really hard. The example of Germany having 800 DSOs - but there are other countries like Sweden. Sweden also has, I don't know, 150 DSOs, maybe even more, that have different tariff structures.

41:18 And I think that's a good thing. We started this conversation about how there are these niche roles - companies fulfilling a niche role that are really valuable. One niche role is, for instance, being able to provide accurate descriptions of the network tariff in a certain region. As a CPO you want to deploy chargers, but how do you know what differences there are in the network tariff structure if you have 800 DSOs in Germany? So there are players that are able to help them.

42:04 Get that information into their system, and for instance that could help shape an investment decision or help shape the way they configure energy management on a certain site. Yeah. And as we're at it, maybe can you elaborate on the value pools that you think flex enables - both for fleets and CPOs to capture - and where you see the largest potential? So we can deep dive a little bit more on where there is potential, instead of losing track on side topics that will not be so relevant in your view.

42:48 Yeah. So I think the main lever ultimately is being able to move with generation. The broader topic of the energy transition is a transition from a system where generation followed demand - we move away from thermal power plants that are controllable and basically demand-following. We move to energy sources that are predictable but have a time-varying profile, mostly shaped by the weather as I said before. So we need demand to be following that supply.

43:32 If you're able to follow that supply, that's where you get to the low cost of electrification, the low cost of decarbonization. Being able to follow that is, I think, ultimately the biggest lever you have. But there's the big but - there's the grid. The capacity on the grid is not unlimited. The capacity at different levels of the grid, especially at the grid connection point where you would connect your charger or your depot, is not unlimited. There's also different value over time, so some of that over time it might be.

44:16 Still needed to expand the grid so you can access more of that renewable electricity being transferred across Europe. Ultimately the whole of Europe would benefit if we have a better build-out across the continent. If Spain could be using some of the wind from Denmark, for instance, through the interconnectors.

44:41 So ultimately there's a lot to be done there, but before we reach the point where we have the interconnectors we need, or on a specific site have the capacity you might need, there's also the shorter-term need to stay within capacity limits and to be able to adjust the profile. So it's stacking maybe that energy market with local grid connections and local grid conditions, and then it becomes a multi-input optimization already, right?

45:17 Yeah, the multi-criteria optimization that we think a lot about too. And one thing that I'd love to have your view on, that I find is not so much understood yet in the wider community, is everybody talks about peak shaving or managing peaks. But I think what lies under the hood of the peak is not fully understood. And especially interesting, if you think about it, there's peak shaving, which basically tries to create a base load, and then there's flex, which is trying to create peaks and move to a time window which is favorable in terms of costs.

45:58 Or in terms of congested grids. So how do you think about this apparent contradiction? And how are we going to manage this in the short term? And are we going to finally move away from this rigid grid fee structure which incentivizes peak shaving a lot? As far as I understand, one of the largest costs right now is just this kilowatt peak that is randomly taken for a year without considering in an intelligent way the congestion amount of the area.

46:34 Yeah, and I think that's still one of the key challenges of the phase we're currently in. Many understand that not every peak has the same impact, so peaks can be at different times, and sometimes a charging peak or demand peak can actually be very beneficial for the grid if it coincides with a supply peak. As I said, for instance, if you have on the same network a portion you might have.

47:05 So let's just pause on that moment, because I find it so well put. As you say, people are so proudly peak shaving when exactly there are peaks of different kinds. We should talk much more about the quality of the peak. There's a range of peaks, and sometimes it's good to peak shave, but sometimes you've done exactly the wrong thing by peak shaving - you should have created the peak, right?

47:27 Yes, and I think that's also the struggle we're in, because some of the earlier network tariffs or demand charges within a network tariff actually have the opposite effect of what they tried to achieve. So it might flatten the peak now, but then you would have a secondary peak at a later time that might actually be a new problem or a bigger problem.

47:50 And I think the ones shaping those tariffs - DSOs and regulators - still need to see more evidence. And I think that's maybe also a call from my side to many of the market actors that are already shaping that flexibility today: to show, tell, and demonstrate how unlocking the flexibility of EV charging - to stick to that topic - can really be beneficial for the grid in managing the type of peaks and delivering the quality of peaks that are needed. I was yesterday, actually - just brilliant that you bring it up, I need to tell this.

48:36 I was talking with commissioners from California, energy commissioners, and I was sharing this example. I'm kind of a podcast geek, as you've probably guessed, so I watched the Lex Fridman interview with Jensen Huang. And one thing that really struck me was that for three hours they talked about all things AI that you can imagine - you're probably also following the AI developments a lot. And then Fridman asked a lot of questions, and eventually Jensen said: is there anything I should have asked you? And he was like, yes, we should discuss.

49:10 This one thing that is on top of my mind right now: how do we manage peaks at data centers? And I was like, oh. And then he was really talking about exactly what we're just discussing. So this is one of the most critical things for AI development - how energy is being tariffed right now, how data centers can be approved depending on the peaks they are designed for, and how we can have flexibility in the way we manage AI loads. I find it quite striking - this is exactly what I'm working on all the time. So yeah.

49:43 We need to - so this is a call maybe for all the listeners as well. What is the call? We need to talk to DSOs, we need to talk to regulators, to the Bundesnetzagentur, the federal network agency, to the associations. And yes, exactly - show and demonstrate what you're able to do, how much you are able to shift in volume, but also the shape of the charging load that you're able to

50:18 fold and mold into something that works for the grid. And I think that needs to be quantified - in volumes but also in terms of quality: what time spans are available, how can you deliver, even long term, how can you avoid long-term grid investment, but also in the short term how can you help balance on a really local level. And I think.

50:53 DSOs need to see more of it and be able to rely on it as a reliable resource. And I think some of you - you mentioned Smarten, for instance - you're doing a great job in Brussels pointing that out and quantifying that and showing to policymakers at the European level. Yes, flexibility is a resource the whole flexibility industry can deliver. And this is what it can deliver for grids and for the energy system in terms of savings in avoided grid costs, or in being able to access more of that lower-cost generation that we have on the system.

51:37 And still it's difficult to deliver proof points on how it supports the grid if the grid structure is just old-fashioned and is not yet adapted to the new system, right? You're right. Maybe you can give examples of the Netherlands, as the Netherlands is always a country that is, on the one hand, quite innovative and leading in what we're discussing. And secondly, also particularly affected. I just want to shout out to Leonard Farahani, who is also a very good expert in this topic.

52:06 He shared yesterday at the ICNC how the map of the Netherlands was just turning red in terms of being fully congested right now. So maybe can you discuss a bit the ways that the Netherlands is trying to tackle this topic? Yeah. So I think what's happening in the Netherlands is really fascinating because you see some of those different approaches. Yes, there is a map of the Netherlands that is fully red to get new grid connections, and red means that it's probably not possible at this location to get a

52:44 fixed capacity allocated. But obviously, why do you need 24/7, 365 days a year, the same capacity on a grid connection point? So if you're able to be flexible - and obviously that's something that we discussed - if you have EVs, you probably are flexible. There are ways around it; you might not need capacity at all during the evening peak in winter times, for instance. So being more granular in data is something that is really needed.

53:24 Which at the moment is still a bit missing. So you see a map which is basically binary - yes, it's possible, or no, it's not possible - but there are so many nuances in between. So what if you would have a different demand profile? There might be more options. That's something that European policymakers are actually trying to explain to national lawmakers: we need a system where this granular grid information is made available. So having granular visibility - meaning location, time, and grid levels -

54:05 how congested a grid is, or how much capacity is available, can help developers find the locations or find the solutions that they need to work with, which could also include stationary batteries to overcome a problem, but it could also mean implementing a certain demand profile for charging. So that's one element.

54:32 The other element is: how good is the mechanism to incentivize flexible users for those that are already on the grid? Because this map is only talking about who is waiting in line to get access to the grid, but the big chunk obviously are those that are already on the grid - those that have already entered that system. So maybe call it like the scooter ride at a fair: there are people waiting in line to get in, they can't, and some of them are already driving around in there.

55:16 You need to also work with them to overcome some of those traffic jams. And there it's about how accessible the mechanisms are that are put in place by DSOs for those that can actually deliver that flexibility. And I've seen huge developments, especially over the past years and months - from something that

55:42 wasn't available, to a flexibility mechanism that mainly targeted really large commercial and industrial users, to something that is now arriving at a point where distributed flexibility - from single EVs, delivered also by mobility service providers and by aggregators - is something that is enabled to deliver flexibility to the grid.

56:11 So, just to be clear, is it working at scale right now in the Netherlands already? And it's also moving to a new phase this autumn, where there's a new market mechanism specifically allowing distributed energy resources - distributed flexibility connected at the low-voltage level - to participate in the flexibility market as well.

56:37 So if I'm an EV driver in the Netherlands and I plug in my charger either at home or at a public charger, then I can participate in the congestion management of the DSO, and you have a reduced fee - at the moment, yes. So there are companies that are able to provide you that access and deliver that to you as a driver, but also deliver that flexibility to the grid.

57:07 OK, well, that's already good for other countries to take as inspiration. And what did it take for the Netherlands to be able to do that - what were the hurdles that, let's say, other countries are facing that the Netherlands managed to surpass already? So I would say also some of these innovators in the market demonstrating the technical possibilities, but also demonstrating the value of the fleet.

57:38 That they could already tap into that flexibility that they could unlock. So some of those early players - shout out to Deaf Power, with some of their customers at Deaf Power, and we had them on the podcast with Michael Johans - they've been really hard at work demonstrating at scale how this mechanism could work. And by demonstrating that, they basically also convinced the grid operators: yes, this is a mechanism that can really contribute to their goals and needs. So I think that's also a great example of

58:21 again, showing and telling what you can do, and explaining that you can also create a market for yourself - well, not just for you, but for everyone in the market. But that requires - so for example, let's take the example of Deaf Power - also CPOs to be willing. Deaf Power cannot do it by themselves; they had to be able to demonstrate it in the first place, and also find willing CPOs and probably also willing DSOs. So it took

58:52 several stakeholders to do the demonstration. Right, and sometimes it takes time for them to understand what the benefits are for them. And I think it's slowly emerging, this understanding - also with CPOs - that there is value in flexibility that they alone cannot access, because they do not have direct access, for instance, to the driver. We're in a system where obviously we want to be interoperable, we want to have roaming, so you want to provide access to every EV driver.

59:28 But do you really want to interact with every EV driver's needs, or can there be a layer in between that can simplify that communication? So I think it becomes increasingly clear how collaboration also brings a lot of benefits to the whole value chain. Yeah, definitely - 100% we need more collaboration at all levels to enable these things, otherwise the value can also get stuck if one player doesn't play along, right? And maybe - which is also another topic I've had several conversations on -

1:00:09 the sometimes highly controversial Durchleitungs model in Germany: the pass-through or transit model, where the charge point operator is doing the charge point operation but not necessarily being the one responsible for the energy supply, and especially not for the balancing of that energy. Right, yeah. And I think one of the interesting benefits ultimately also for CPOs is that it can offload some of those more complex responsibilities from their end, helping them to create a more viable, investable, bankable business case for charging operations.

1:00:52 On the energy side, the demand profile and being able to forecast energy needs - and ultimately also maybe shaping the charging demand with smart charging, maybe in the future even bi-directional charging - within a fleet, an aggregated fleet, becomes a task then of maybe the MSP, or someone much more closely tied to the actual vehicle. Which ultimately brings the benefit that you have much higher predictability and a much more accurate profile - much less imbalance. So it helps the CPO, it helps the consumer, and ultimately it helps the system.

1:01:37 But it's still complex, and it's still something that again needs demonstration for everyone to understand how those benefits would play out. Yeah, it's a complicated topic, and I think few people - shout out to Knut and our friends at Decarbonized, who have been spearheading this idea - can explain it. And I think it still requires some education. Maybe we can just elaborate a bit on that. So, the problem as the setup is today - breaking it down so that you can then share more.

1:02:17 So the CPOs are the ones procuring the electricity and selling the electricity to the MSPs, who are in turn selling a certain amount of electricity to the drivers. And what you're suggesting is that the electricity being procured and sold by the CPO to the MSP - that part goes away, and it becomes completely the responsibility of the MSP. Right, so far, right? And then the problem with the CPO being in charge, as in the current model,

1:02:51 for flex, is that they might not be able to influence the driver as much as the MSP can - both in forecasting demand and then adjusting the balancing. Am I getting that right? Right, especially because they can mostly only influence it once the session has started. But I think part of it is even more interesting: knowing in advance the charging need, the volume, maybe nudging the driver to use a certain location. So there are many more steps and many more data points ahead of actually plugging into a charging station.

1:03:41 And so in the current setup, typically for a CPO it only starts as soon as someone plugs in, and you could do energy management - and that's still useful. But there's also this more advanced layer of knowing in advance, which then links to the topic of energy trading and forecasting that we touched upon. That requires much richer information on that specific driver. But to play devil's advocate - and it's a question I wanted to ask you - there's a bit of an open question on how the development of the MSP role would also be.

1:04:24 So we had actually, last episode, we had Karika and Isam here, the founders who enable CPOs to broadcast prices and set prices, thereby sort of circumventing the MSP. And also there are direct payment mandates, I think by half year, so then you don't really need to pay via your MSP app. Couldn't it also be done in the exact flip side, where you see much more responsibility at the CPO? And how do you look at that? Well, we need both, and I think CPOs should be able to broadcast their prices to MSPs.

1:05:06 Especially coming from the Netherlands, I sometimes struggle to understand why that doesn't work, because in the Netherlands it's much more commonplace that CPOs have price endpoints - we can dive into the technical details of that - but they publish their tariff prices to MSPs and it can be done in real time. In the German market it sometimes feels like something from, I don't know, utopia, to have a system like that in place. Utopia in many ways, but it sometimes feels like pricing is being treated as something that is being...

1:05:51 We could use the stereotype of, I don't know, it's something that you would sign and lock at the notary and then goes into a vault and stays fixed - but also secretive - between the CPO and MSPs for years. I think that doesn't fit today's market and today's needs. So yes, we need mechanisms in place, also roaming hubs and roaming protocols that are actually able to have real-time pricing and also forecasted pricing and historic pricing. We really should expand on that, from CPOs to MSPs.

1:06:34 So yes, that's something we need. And then on the MSP side, they need to be able to process that price information, because I also see a limitation in the market where some players aren't able to process different prices - they aren't able to process, for instance, two prices within the same charging session from the CPO. They can only use a single price per CPO because of software limitations. It's a software limitation, and I'm always, you know...

1:07:09 More optimistic, maybe, of what software can achieve than others think. In practice it's more complex, and I think they're probably right at some point. But I do think being able to process different prices, different times, different locations should - as a software producer I can clearly make a statement - in the age of AI that shouldn't be a big issue. It shouldn't be a big issue. So to answer the question, I think that needs to be solved anyhow.

1:07:39 And yes, ad hoc pricing - and that's also the fear - the European Alternative Fuels Infrastructure regulation already today requires non-discriminatory pricing, so not discriminating between different users or between different payment methods. That has grown into an issue, notably in Germany, where some players have such a huge price difference between what they charge users based on their own app-based payment system and those that are either paying ad hoc or using a roaming partner. I think that shouldn't be in place.

1:08:23 So ultimately I think it's the market that needs to get its act together and sort it out. And maybe a little bit of legal action here and there might help shape that, and probably also a little bit of policy and regulatory clarification - maybe some of that might be diffused in the current regulation. So that's one part. But then the second part - even there I think the MSP needs to evolve into a much more stacked services provider, not just delivering the invoice at the end of the month.

1:09:11 But also providing the added value of telling you when is the best time to charge, what is the best location to charge, how can we help you with route planning, how can we help you access the best prices by nudging you - and that's also what DEW Power has been shaping. Once you're at the charging station, especially those with longer parking durations, can we shift some of that charging demand out of the peaks and to the valleys? Yeah, very interesting.

1:09:48 Just to stick one moment with the flex example you just gave: is it just DSOs that are influencing how flex is enabled in these examples in the Netherlands, or also intraday prices combined? Yes, also intraday and day-ahead prices combined. So it's stacking those, and again there you need a system that is capable of optimizing for multiple inputs that sometimes obviously have conflicting goals and prices.

1:10:24 And there again it helps if you can scale and have an aggregated fleet of users, so your charging profile and your charging needs might be different than mine, but having both of us combined into one balancing area can deliver those benefits. And how much - so you drive an EV, right? How much money can you save as an EV driver in the Netherlands today if you go to an AC charger?

1:10:55 So for like a night - or I don't know how it works, whether you can do it daily at specific moments only - yeah, so I happen to use one of DEW Power's smart charging solutions on the public charging station in my street, and it cuts my charging bill. Let's say from the €20 I would pay for the charge I need, it gives me maybe €2 in benefits, so 10%, which is really nice to have.

1:11:32 So it's not like it turns into something that is then free, because there are obviously still costs. But it's significant, especially if you look at it for a full year. And it's also the beginning, and that was also a good segue to V2G or bi-directional charging, which makes the whole thing even more complicated, but also more interesting. The holy grail, yeah - and there you probably need to retrofit, so that's the key challenge always. Let's tackle that one first, so the tech.

1:12:06 The tech challenges - I guess you need to retrofit the chargers if you wanted to do V2G at your home, the same charger you're doing, yeah. And so that's one key challenge with the retrofitting. Is there even a plan already in the Netherlands, as you're always thinking ahead, of doing such a thing? Well, there is a plan, and I would say there were already sort of requirements on certain charging stations, certain tenders, to be capable of bi-directional charging, but actually.

1:12:41 Too early. So I would say that's a stranded investment, because if you see how the technical standard has evolved - so the basis was ISO 15118-20, well now there's an Amendment 1 that more clearly defines how AC bi-directional charging would work. Also under development are European grid codes that shape the responsibilities between the car, the inverter in the car, and the charging station. So if you look at it, some of that was maybe too early, because we first need to get to a first deployment and the first market for bi-directional charging before we can actually.

1:13:30 Mandate it and scale that functionality. I do also think that the prospect of V2G and bi-directional charging sometimes obscures the immediate and much larger opportunity we already have with unidirectional smart charging. So you think there's still so much to be done in one direction that we shouldn't think too much ahead to bi-directional? Well, it's both, because we still need to work on bi-directional charging and there are still many hurdles that need to be tackled - some of that related especially to.

1:14:16 How to access markets, how to access the value, how to make sure that grid operators can actually utilize that flexibility, and reward flexibility that contributes to the viability of a V2G business case. So how do you then look at Utrecht? I think it's one of the world's most advanced projects in the sense of V2G at scale, supposedly. Have you ever also been a beneficiary of that, or what's the constraint, or how do they make it work already today? Well.

1:14:54 They make it work with a car-sharing fleet, so it's a captive fleet, which is great because I think that helps make it much less complex - it's one type of OEM, one type of carmaker. But also there's basically a single operator of that fleet, so from their system you can pull all the data on when different vehicles are being needed. You have a single source of information. It becomes obviously much more complex if you would include private cars, so it's not working for private cars.

1:15:33 It works with a captive fleet, and there it is working. And I think that's also where it's already interesting - households again: you have the single car, single house, single charger. I think those are the first use cases for bi-directional charging where already today, 2026, 2027, we'll see the action and we'll see the benefits. Very cool. But they have one make of vehicles and one make of chargers that has all the aforementioned.

1:16:07 Grid codes and standards that are required, and I guess the DSO also - or the utility on site - there's one player, right? So the DSO created for them this access to a flexibility mechanism, so they are able to trade basically that volume and be rewarded for that flexibility that they have in moving loads, or basically discharging, to peak times. Just the same DSO and Intraday combination that we discussed earlier. It's a very interesting example. I mean, Utrecht - I need to go there eventually.

1:16:56 Also the largest bike parking in the world, I think, right? I mean, if people cycle, their car has even more flexibility - if you don't need your car, the car is just parked there all the time. Use it as battery storage eventually, yeah. So, one more question on geography: next to the Netherlands, which country do you see as actually really leading in flexibility, in EV in particular? Well, Denmark is fascinating - how many of the EV charging ecosystem players are delivering.

1:17:33 Services to the grid, to the TSO actually - so we've never talked about the TSO so far, right. I find it fascinating how so many of the EVs that are being charged in Denmark, whether that's at a workplace or residential or even public, are being aggregated, and that volume is being used to deliver some of those real-time services. Yeah, very cool. Denmark was also very early in doing those types of things, as far as I remember. Yeah, and maybe - I mean there are so many more topics, but I think we will have to do other episodes at this point.

1:18:19 So just to keep the episode at some length: are there any topics next to what we discussed in the beginning - affordability and CPO pricing - that are interesting for fleets and private charging, that you think are worth highlighting, that you also find particularly exciting and that fleets should look into? So I think two things come to mind. For fleets, the whole topic of energy management, of grid capacity, of the various energy markets that we discussed.

1:18:58 It's something they probably will have never heard of or never interacted with, so there is a huge gap. Not necessarily that they need to become energy experts, but there is a strong need for market roles in helping fleets navigate that space - or not only navigate, but actually become an active participant in it. So that is a market role which is really important: being the bridge between that complexity. We touched upon a bit of the surface of that complexity, but it's even more complex.

1:19:46 Also on the logistics side, I'm not an expert in fleet disposition or route planning, etc. - that's another type of complexity where you also obviously see a need for solutions. Bringing that together is what we need, and with "what we need" I mean as a society, because being able to tap into that flexibility potential is really bringing down costs for a fleet operator. It's really delivering on the TCO improvement promise of electrification.

1:20:32 It is enabled by electrification and by enabling flexibility, but it also brings some costs down for everyone in the energy system - not even talking about all the environmental and health benefits of electrification and getting rid of diesel. Really being able to use flexibility is something that benefits both a fleet operator as well as the wider society. So in other words, it's a call to action: hey, fleet operators, don't worry, even if we hinted at many topics that sounded too complicated.

1:21:15 There are people like us, by the way, that are simplifying stuff for you, and there is big potential for you, but also for society, if you really dare to now engage in these types of topics, right? And I would also say for all the market actors in the e-mobility space, also again highlighting where you started with the quote.

1:21:38 They need to define what they want to do themselves, or how to enable a connection to others that can deliver that value, because I think that much of that value can also be delivered through collaboration. So we need to get to a much more collaborative system, a system that is able to communicate well, and where I mean communication more on both a technical level but also a commercial level. We need to be able to connect several building blocks, and some of those market roles or market players

1:22:20 need to consider whether they want to do it all themselves, which can have certain benefits, or where they would need specialized players to deliver that. All right, with that, I think also on this collaborative call to action, we are very much the same believers in collaboration at all levels, tech and business. I just say thank you, and hopefully let's do more again. Yap made a point about peaks that deserve much more attention and nuance. Not every peak is equally bad.

1:22:59 A charging peak that lines up with a solar peak can actually help the grid, and some of the early demand charges inside network tariffs simply flatten one peak and create a second, bigger one later. His call to the industry is to show and tell, quantify how much volume you can shift and how well you can shape it, because grid operators need evidence before they treat flexibility as a resource they can rely on. I also liked how tangible the benefit already is.

1:23:31 Yap uses a smart charging service on the public charger in his own street, and it takes around €2 off a €20 charge - small per session, real over a year. On vehicle-to-grid, he was refreshingly sober. It works today in captive fleets like in Utrecht, with one carmaker and operator, one source of data. It does not fully work for private cars yet, and the excitement around it can obscure much bigger prizes like we have with unidirectional smart charging. So if you take one thing from the episode, go and demonstrate what grid flexibility can actually do in numbers. Thanks for listening.