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Smart Charge by RiDERgy · Season 2, Episode 11

On-Demand-Verkehr, Elektroflotten, autonomes Fahren

Jannis Mossmann

Geschäftsführer von MWM Solutions

10 November 2026 · 1 hr 6 min · Deutsch · Host: Claudio Geyken

Key takeaways

  • Die größte Nutzergruppe der Rufbusse sind Menschen zwischen dreißig und fünfzig; 25 Prozent der Fahrten sind Anschlussfahrten, und drei Viertel der Fahrgäste fahren nicht mit Bus oder Bahn weiter, was er als neue Nutzergruppen für den öffentlichen Nahverkehr deutet.

  • Die Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft Offenbach denkt darüber nach, Bus und On-Demand-Verkehr nicht mehr getrennt auszuschreiben, mit der Vorgabe, dass jeder Einwohner innerhalb von 20 Minuten ein Mobilitätsangebot bekommt.

  • Zur Berlinale hat MWM mit Audi 120 e-tron gesteuert, in einem Hangar in Tempelhof 120 Ladepunkte und 14 Schnelllader für 14 Tage aufgebaut und ein Jahr später mit acht Schnellladern am Potsdamer Platz auskommen können; ein Lastmanagement war nicht nötig.

  • Die Flotte im Raum Storkow: sieben Fahrzeuge, fünf elektrisch; geladen wird nachts im Betriebshof (zu etwa 80 Prozent ausreichend), dazu an öffentlichen Schnellladern; Elektro rund 20 Prozent günstiger als Diesel.

  • Dynamische Tarife, Lastspitzenkappung und bidirektionales Laden würde er gern nutzen; der gemietete Betriebshof mit Vermieterstrom und zweieinhalbjährige Verträge verhindern es.

  • Nahverkehrspläne laufen im Fünfjahreszyklus, viele geförderte On-Demand-Projekte wurden nach zwei, drei Jahren eingestellt, und seine eigenen Verträge laufen zweieinhalb Jahre.

Smart Charge Leader · 10. November 2026

Landkreise sollten Ergebnisse statt Linien kaufen

Wer die Erreichbarkeit ausschreibt statt den Fahrplan, bekommt Verkehre, die sich an der Nachfrage orientieren und länger tragen als ein Förderprojekt.

By RiDERgy editorial

Die größte Nutzergruppe der Rufbusse von MWM Solutions im ländlichen Brandenburg sind Menschen zwischen dreißig und fünfzig, also die, von denen man erwarten würde, dass sie ohnehin alle mit dem Auto fahren. Das sagt Jannis Mossmann, Geschäftsführer des Berliner Betreibers. Es ist ein On-Demand-Verkehr: ein softwaregesteuerter Rufbus, der nur fährt, wenn jemand ihn bucht, und dabei die ganze Fläche bedient statt einer Linie. Wo er täglich von früh bis spät fährt, wird er für viele zu einer echten Alternative zum Auto.

Landkreise sollten deshalb nicht länger Linien bestellen, sondern ein Ergebnis: dass jeder Einwohner in einer festgelegten Zeit irgendwohin kommt.

Die Logik des Systems spricht heute dagegen. In Deutschland sind die Landkreise für den öffentlichen Nahverkehr zuständig, und jeder lässt einen Nahverkehrsplan erstellen, der nach Mossmanns Beschreibung wie ein Fünfjahresplan festlegt, wie der Verkehr organisiert wird. Entwickelt sich der Markt schneller, ist darin schnell etwas veraltet. Neue Verkehrsformen kamen deshalb vor allem über Fördergeld ins System. Seit 2019 sind viele On-Demand-Projekte so entstanden, und nach zwei, drei Jahren, wenn sich die Frage der Finanzierung stellt, wurden viele wieder eingestellt, teils weil sie zu groß dimensioniert waren. Das Fördergeld hatte dabei auch sein Gutes: Es bricht das alte System auf, weil plötzlich Kapital für neue Verkehre da ist, und gelangt mit der Zeit in die Nahverkehrspläne. Das passiert nach Mossmann, dauert aber lange. MWM selbst fährt nach seinen Angaben derzeit mit Verträgen von zweieinhalb Jahren, große Busunternehmen bekommen acht bis zehn.

6 min read

Show notes

Die größte Nutzergruppe der softwaregesteuerten Rufbusse von MWM Solutions im ländlichen Brandenburg sind Menschen zwischen dreißig und fünfzig, also die, von denen man erwarten würde, dass sie alle mit dem Auto fahren. Jannis Mossmann, Geschäftsführer von MWM Solutions, erklärt On-Demand-Verkehr als Teil des öffentlichen Nahverkehrs: Rufbusse, die dort fahren, wo ein Linienbus sich nicht mehr trägt.

Jannis erzählt, wie er als Chauffeur und Koordinator von Fahrdiensten zu MWM kam und wie aus der Dispositionsarbeit für Großveranstaltungen wie die Berlinale für Audi der Einstieg in den On-Demand-Verkehr wurde. Er erklärt, was On-Demand-Verkehr bedeutet, warum viele durch Fördergeld gestartete Projekte nach zwei, drei Jahren wieder eingestellt wurden und wie MWM im Raum Storkow und in Schenkendöbern fährt: sieben Fahrzeuge, davon fünf elektrisch. Gebucht wird per App, per Telefon oder über eine KI-Hotline, bis zu sieben Tage im Voraus, die mediane Wartezeit liegt nach seiner Schätzung bei rund 25 Minuten. 25 Prozent der Fahrten sind Anschlussfahrten zu Bus oder Bahn, und drei Viertel der Fahrgäste fahren danach nicht mit Bus oder Bahn weiter: MWM erreicht Menschen, die den öffentlichen Nahverkehr vorher nicht genutzt haben.

Dann geht es um die Frage, wie Mobilität neu gedacht werden kann: um autonomes Fahren als nächsten Schritt für softwaregesteuerte Verkehre, um Nahverkehrspläne im Fünfjahreszyklus und um eine Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft, die darüber nachdenkt, Bus und On-Demand-Verkehr gemeinsam auszuschreiben und jedem Einwohner innerhalb von 20 Minuten ein Mobilitätsangebot zu sichern. Zum Schluss erzählt Jannis, wie MWM früh mit Elektromobilität in Kontakt kam: Für die Berlinale mit Audi baute das Team in einem Hangar in Tempelhof 120 Ladepunkte und 14 temporäre Supercharger für 120 Audi e-tron auf, für 14 Tage. Ein Jahr später reichten acht Supercharger am Potsdamer Platz. Außerdem spricht er darüber, wie MWM ohne Fremdkapital profitabel gewachsen ist und mit KI eigene Cockpits für den Betrieb baut.

Eine Folge über flexible Mobilität auf dem Land, und darüber, was es braucht, damit sie dauerhaft trägt.

Resources mentioned

The guest's company

  • MWM-Solutions

    Jannis Mossmann's company: on-demand transport, shuttle and event logistics from Berlin, which operates the on-demand services in Brandenburg discussed in the episode.

  • S2 Ep. 2: Pierre Rudolph, Fleet & E-Mobility Lead (Last Mile)

    The earlier Smart Charge guest whom Jannis worked with and whom both mention at the start.

Regulation and standards

Companies and tools

  • Berlinale

    The Berlin film festival where MWM ran the shuttle service for Audi, its first large project.

  • Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft Offenbach

    The regional transport company that asked MWM to bid for its on-demand service in 2018 and is now thinking about tendering bus and on-demand transport together.

  • Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin

    Berlin research centre for which MWM runs an employee shuttle.

  • BER Airport

    The airport where MWM has won a tender for an on-demand service for staff on the landside, starting in November.

Cite this episode

Geyken, C. (host), Mossmann, J. (guest). "On-Demand-Verkehr, Elektroflotten, autonomes Fahren." Smart Charge by RiDERgy, Season 2, Episode 11, 10 November 2026. www.ridergy.com/podcast/s2-ep-11-jannis-mossmann-geschaftsfuhrer-von-mwm-solutions-on-demand-verkehr-ele

Transcript

10,664 words · machine transcript

Other languages
  • Claudio Geyken, host
  • Jannis Mossmann, guest

Cleaned up from a machine transcript. Translations are machine-generated and may contain errors.

Claudio Geyken

Welcome to the Smart Charge by RiDERgy Podcast. This is Claudio Geyken, Founder and CEO of RiDERgy. This is your show to learn about all things energy management and smart charging innovation for electric vehicles and fleets. In this episode, we're talking about on-demand transport. The largest user group of a demand-responsive bus service in rural areas is not teenagers and not seniors, but people between 30 and 50 – in other words, exactly those you'd expect to be driving their own car anyway.

That's what my guest today, Jannis, tells me. He's a political scientist, drove limousines as a student, and is co-founder of MWM Solutions in Berlin. His company has already managed the Berlinale with up to 300 vehicles – particularly from Audi and electric, one of the first generations – and today operates on-demand transport services in Brandenburg, increasingly electric. I found two things particularly exciting: for the Berlinale, his team temporarily installed 14 superchargers and 100 AC charging points at Tempelhof Airport, and that for just 14 days.

And 25 per cent of trips are connecting journeys to bus and train. However, three quarters of passengers don't transfer again after that. That speaks to completely new user groups in public transport. It's about the future of mobility, but also the present. Enjoy the conversation with Jannis. Hello, Jannis. Great to have you here today. How are you today? Hello. Yes, I'm good. I'm pleased to be here. Great. Yes, we just established earlier that we have a mutual acquaintance: Pierre Rudolf, who's already been on the podcast. You worked with him.

Jannis Mossmann

In the past – we'll get to that shortly. Before we dive into what you're doing now, can you give us a bit of background on where you come from? Feel free to go back as far as you like. Yes, gladly. So, I'm from Berlin, grew up here and studied politics – so in a completely different field from the one I'm actually working in now. And during my studies I always worked as a chauffeur and then later also coordinated transport services or shuttle services.

And that's how I came into contact with Pierre Rudolf. In any case, best regards to my old colleague – I'd love to see him again. Exactly. And that's how I grew into this whole topic of transport service, shuttle service, did a lot with vehicles and so on, and of course later also electric mobility. That was my entry point. And I completed my degree. But as it goes with political scientists – I think this is quite interesting: political scientists have, I believe, the lowest unemployment rate. Oh yes, among graduates.

But they rarely end up in their field. Interesting statistic. Yes, exactly. And that's why I then worked as an employee. During my studies I was always working as a chauffeur or also as a coordinator as a freelancer. And I come from an entrepreneurial family – so my parents are both business owners. And yes, ultimately I always wanted to do something myself, and I realised that in my employment situation. That didn't last long.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

Were your parents active in the same segment as you, or something completely different? Yes, something completely different. So my mother is an architect and my father is actually a biologist and then worked in further education. And why did you decide on the chauffeur job as a working student job, which then became so important for your subsequent path? Well, I always worked a lot, even as a child – that was somehow important to me. I think from age 14,

Jannis Mossmann

as soon as you were allowed to work, I did all kinds of jobs – loads of different jobs. Everything from working in the forest, in forestry during the summer holidays, to various promotional jobs, standing around in traffic jams handing out newspapers or something. And yes, then I was – I still remember, actually pretty clearly – somehow also after a job with a friend on the way home.

We were walking along Unter den Linden or in the city centre and then saw these black limousines and young guys sitting behind the wheel, and thought that would actually be the perfect job, would be really fun. I've always been interested in cars anyway. And then we just researched who does that. And through an acquaintance we became aware of a company. And we applied there. And then it slowly took off.

It was a company that started introducing valet parking in Berlin or in Germany, which you really only knew from the USA. And valet parking doesn't work so well in Germany. So Germans don't like to hand over their car at a hotel or at an event and have it parked by a stranger. They prefer to park themselves.

And so they moved relatively quickly into this transport service and shuttle service business for major events, because the German car manufacturers at that time were still doing a huge amount of sponsoring, which is no longer the case today. Exactly, and that was the background. And that's when we started. And because it was so much fun, we sometimes worked more than we studied. So the degree took a bit longer. And we always had great jobs, almost worldwide, you could say. Really?

Oh I see, so it wasn't just in Berlin – it was across Germany. Back then we did a lot for Volkswagen, and at that time Volkswagen launched the Phaeton. And yes, that was, let's say, a luxury sedan that Volkswagen brought out and which of course didn't sell at all. So they had to undertake considerable marketing efforts to at least get this vehicle visible to potential buyers or to interesting buyer groups. And exactly, so we were often on the road with them.

And that wasn't just in Germany. And you were also in Africa for your studies. Can you maybe say how that came about? So I studied in Potsdam and wanted to – I have a family connection to South Africa and after my A-levels I'd already spent six weeks in South Africa during the summer holidays doing a language course. And so I had a connection to Cape Town and Stellenbosch, that area. And exactly.

And then of course I wanted to do a year abroad during my studies, and I simply saw that Stellenbosch University was a partner university of the University of Potsdam. And I enquired in Potsdam. Exactly. And then it was like: "Oh yes, interesting. Yes, that's right. We are partners. Nobody's ever taken that up before." Really? Exactly. So I was – together with a fellow student – the first to go to Stellenbosch. Yes, exactly. And would you like to mention one thing that sticks in your mind from that experience?

Well, I actually completed my degree in Stellenbosch as well. So I basically stayed there. It was so lovely. I studied there, even extended my stay, and I was still on the diploma programme. And then the university offered me the opportunity to do a master's there. I wrote that master's mainly in Berlin. It was a long-term master's thesis. So you didn't have to spend the last year at university anymore. And my professor who supervised me was based in the USA anyway.

And exactly, so I basically wrote my master's in the city library here in Berlin. Yes, and I'm interested in China. And I'd read that it had something to do with the 2008 Beijing Olympics – this thesis? Could be. No, not the master's thesis. I think I did – I believe, a term paper. That was a term paper. And at that time you could put term papers online. And there was this company where you could get, like, fifty cents whenever someone downloaded it or something.

That's why a few old, funny papers of mine are still floating around on the internet. Okay. And then after this chauffeur service – what did you do next? Well, I then worked freelance for a while, but after my studies, a bit later, I became a father. Then I looked for a permanent position to have something stable and a regular income. And then I – that was the time when I worked as an employee in the area of – yes, actually also shuttle service and personnel

at an agency in Berlin as well. And then after a year I moved back to the agency I'd already worked for a lot as a freelancer. Exactly. And then I – that was the time when we'd always worked with freelance drivers and that was changed. There was definitely a conflict about social security fraud and so on. And then the company changed over to drivers and coordinators subject to social insurance contributions. And I accompanied that change at the time.

And then, how did MWM Solutions come about? Was that already the next step, or? That was one step before that. So the company then – exactly, there was this change – it didn't cope with it so well at the end of the day. There were then also investigations across Germany at these agencies, so customs enforcement also raided our company back then. I don't think it was ever – they were never convicted at the end of the day, but nonetheless everything was at a standstill. And then insolvency was basically actually finalised at that time.

And in the course of that we were – then we were out, or I think I actually left a bit earlier, and then I went self-employed. And then we went self-employed, I with a colleague from that time, and we founded MWM. And how did MWM come about? So what was the core idea, or how did the idea arise? The core idea was that at these major events for the automotive clients we'd often seen that there was a bit of a gap, that they weren't well coordinated, even by the clients themselves, and

so we went in there and said we're basically offering dispatch or project management work for major events. And exactly, our first big client was Audi. With them we then immediately delivered the Berlinale back then. Audi was a major sponsor, actually the biggest partner of the Berlinale among the sponsors at that time. And they also provided the complete shuttle service. And we basically managed that for the Berlinale and also for Audi. Very cool. And exactly.

And electromobility there too – electric didn't come at the beginning. At the beginning it was still beautiful RS6s and RS7s and lots of horsepower, wow, exactly. But always a relatively large fleet, so up to three hundred vehicles during the Berlinale that we managed there. Exactly. And for all VIPs – can you imagine it like that, for VIPs, yes, but also for all the press events. So Audi tried back then to basically cover the entire market.

So if somehow, I don't know, Springer held some event, they'd also park 20 cars there, just so BMW wouldn't get the idea to maybe occupy one event or another. That was the time when they really splashed out. Exactly. And at that time we took care of coordinating the vehicles and the shuttle service for the VIPs, mainly for the film crews. Yes, we then controlled them with our software. Ah, cool.

And how did it come about, after you launched this type of product, that you moved to the next product generation or the next product idea? Ultimately, also through the events business, I'd say. It was a bit of a coincidence. So, it was 2018. We met someone who had previously organised transport management for the German Football Federation during the 2006 World Cup and worked for the DFB back then. And in the meantime he had become

Managing Director of the Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft Offenbach, so working in local public transport, and he had launched a new product, namely so-called on-demand transport. And for this on-demand transport he was looking for an operator. The Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft Offenbach is more of a management unit, and the bus services then run as subcontractors or under subcontract, so to speak. And that's how he also set up the on-demand transport. And he asked us.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

Alongside the big companies in his area who would certainly apply as operators, he also wanted to ask a few, let's say, more dynamic agencies. And yes, he asked us back then whether we could imagine entering such a tender. We did that and then won it straight away. And because we'll probably now do a little deep dive into the world of on-demand transport, it's worth defining the basic building blocks.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

So on-demand – if there is a definition, or if you had to give your own definition, how would you define it for the listeners? Exactly. So in legal German it's called a scheduled demand-responsive service, which confuses things even more. There really isn't a good term, actually. Most people probably know it as a kind of demand-responsive bus. Demand-responsive bus is perhaps the more appropriate or more widespread term. But several types of transport can be included under that.

Jannis Mossmann

Namely in the past the call-and-collect taxi – perhaps that's one term – and the demand-responsive bus. Those are two forms, I'd say smaller vehicles than a big bus, that serve routes that a big bus perhaps shouldn't serve economically anymore, for example in the evenings or on lightly used lines. That's the past. And on-demand essentially means a flexible

demand-responsive bus system, so a demand-responsive bus that on the one hand only runs when it's needed, and not according to a timetable, and that can also serve the whole area and not just individual stops and not only on a line between stops. That's actually the difference. I would say it's a flexible area-wide service that operates on a demand-responsive basis. Exactly. And is that now basically your core business – could you say that – at MWM Solutions? Yes.

So we're still active in the events sector, we've just controlled the Women's Basketball World Cup in Berlin, for example. But I'd say 80 per cent of our business activity is now on-demand transport. And what's the situation in Germany? How widespread are on-demand services, and what's the mix or development there? There are quite a lot already. I'd say that from about 2019, 2020, 2021 onwards there was a very large funding landscape.

So the projects that emerged back then mostly came about because of subsidies. And that's not entirely good – of course it also brings certain problems. That means in some cases very large projects were built up. And when it comes, usually after two or three years, to: okay, how does such a system actually finance itself? – you then realise, perhaps it's too large-scale, or perhaps the demand

– so if you look at how much money you give a passenger to get from A to B – such on-demand services can be very expensive. And that has led to many projects being discontinued again. And I'd say right now it's exciting, because the business is normalising. The services that are now either continuing to operate or being newly set up are somewhat smaller-scale. But for that reason, I believe, set up sustainably in a way that they really will remain.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

And what's happening right now is actually very, very healthy. And where are you active, in exactly which areas? So Berlin-Brandenburg is our core. And you're there with – how does it work exactly? So, you then have your own drivers, your own vehicles and electric vehicles. Perhaps you can also give a few key figures so that people can picture it better. So in Brandenburg we currently operate two on-demand services. One is the Dalli in the Storkow, Bad Saarow, Scharmützelsee region. And we have a demand-responsive bus in Schenkendöbern.

Jannis Mossmann

Both very rural areas, meaning very sparsely populated, even in comparison when you look at other places or regions in Germany. With the Dalli we're now starting to switch to 100 per cent electric. At the moment there are 7 vehicles in the fleet – at the moment 5 are electric and two are still diesel vehicles, but we're currently switching over. So ultimately we've been driving since, I think, we've been operating it since 2022, and since then already with electric vehicles.

So this isn't something that has somehow been added in recent months. Yeah, cool. And where exactly do these vehicles charge, and how much are they on the road? The vehicles drive quite a lot. So with Dalli we can say around 100,000 kilometres per year per vehicle. We charge them mainly at the depot. We simply have our own depot at our operating yard and have installed wallboxes there and charge them overnight. Operations run between 06:00 and 00:30. That means the time we have at night is normally sufficient.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

I'd say about 80%. And then we also charge at public fast charging infrastructure. The vehicles have been in operation for quite a while now – yes, they sometimes drive 400 kilometres a day. We're currently running the e-Vito or EQV. The ranges don't necessarily hold up in winter. That means you do a fast charge in between, essentially. Yes, exactly, when they have a double or triple shift. And these on-demand services – do they work mainly in rural areas or also in cities? How would you assess that?

Jannis Mossmann

How will this develop? What's your vision for on-demand services? Well, I think they work everywhere, first of all. There are also some running in cities. In Berlin, for example, there was the Bergkönig. That was quite well known. It was quite a large project in Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain. That was more of a party shuttle, I'd say. In that sense – well, we at MWM,

we actually don't think much of operating this in major cities, because ultimately public transport is so well developed there – usually plus taxis plus Uber and so on – that you're very well served there. And the public sector doesn't really need to finance another on-demand service when it's already happening on a private level. Okay. So the advantage of – I didn't mention earlier. So the advantage of on-demand services is ultimately pooling, meaning the bundling of trips.

You share trips with other passengers, and at the end of the day it should be such that the cars are always on the move. And ultimately, on a journey from A to B, a detour is accepted so that C or D can also get on. So ideally there should always be a passenger in the car, and the vehicles are optimally utilised. Because otherwise you don't really have much difference from an Uber or a taxi anymore. We have somewhat larger vehicles, a few more seats and – exactly, we're just part of the public service mandate.

Because it's a public transport service, part of local public transport, it's also the case that we're bound by tariffs. So with us you travel according to VBB tariff plus a comfort surcharge, in one case now, or not, as in other services. And you share the trip with other passengers. And so in the long term, the operation should actually be cheaper than if you take a taxi, for example. And is it also the case in rural areas that without you people wouldn't really have any alternatives?

Yes, I'd say very often definitely. Especially – I mean, in Brandenburg it's like this: They have a very good rail network. But anyone who lives there or also holidays there – it's sometimes super difficult to get to certain places. A bus might go there, then the next one doesn't go back until 8 hours later – that's definitely the reality there in some cases. And precisely in such regions you create incredible added value with on-demand services.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

Yes, because at the end of the day you really have an alternative to the private car. That means the users there are also people who don't want to use their car and prefer to use your product, or rather people who wouldn't have a car at all and for whom mobility is only made possible through this? Actually both. Our user group is quite interesting. It's really across the board from young to old. The largest user group is actually the, let's say, middle-aged, where you'd rather think they'd all be driving their own car, so between 30 and 50.

Jannis Mossmann

Of course the service is especially very, very positive for young people who would otherwise always be dependent on parental taxis and so on. They can suddenly be independently mobile. Teenagers too. We have sports clubs that book the on-demand service to pick up the opposing team from the station, for example, because there was no solution for that before. And of course many elderly people who simply no longer drive and are dependent on friends or relatives to drive them.

That means I think that's the first area on a social level that immediately has an impact. And we find that super exciting, and super important and also super valuable. But what really surprised us is that the user groups come from all social strata and all age groups. We also have many people who use it to get to work. 25% of our trips are connection trips, meaning to a bus or to a train. So taking them to a bus or to a train and picking them up again from there.

So at the same time we're essentially a supplementary service for local public transport. But you can also see quite clearly that we're bringing completely new user groups to local public transport, because when three quarters use the on-demand service without continuing by bus or train, that also clearly shows that we're reaching completely different groups here who hadn't used public transport at all before. And that has also been shown in our evaluations. Cool. And how flexible is it? What can you imagine in terms of the user experience?

Claudio Geyken

So I've used Uber Pool before, for example. It exists in certain parts of the world. You probably need an app, but perhaps also for those who don't use smartphones that much – which still exists in society. Then you call somewhere, I assume. And how quickly does it come to me if I arrive at the station, for example, or want to go to the station and make the request? What's the user experience like? Can you explain that again? Yes, exactly. So the whole thing obviously only works software-controlled.

Jannis Mossmann

So we don't have dispatchers sitting there sending vehicles from A to B, but software does all of that automatically. Exactly, there's an algorithm behind it that ultimately handles exactly this trip distribution and rebooking, etc. So completely automatic dispatching, app-controlled. Right. So passengers can use our app and book their trip there, similar to Uber. So there's really no big difference there.

One difference you have with on-demand services is that you normally see the entire journey chains as well. So also the other options I have. I can display what it would be like if I rode a bicycle, or which public transport lines are still running, what the onward journey is, etc. So the connections. I think that's cool. It's similar to Google Maps then. Yes, rather, cool. It's also partly configured there to what extent you're routed to certain modes of transport.

It's not our goal that when a bus runs from A to B, the on-demand service cannibalizes that bus by running the same route 2 minutes earlier and it's more comfortable for the passenger, so they don't use the bus. We avoid exactly that kind of thing. But otherwise it's a completely normal booking via app, but also by phone, right up to the information centre. So you can also come to our office and book your trip there. So that still exists as well.

We make it completely cashless, so we still have about 12 passengers who really don't pay by card or actually only with cash. They then have to come to our office and buy credit, for example. So that exists very, very occasionally. What's more important is that you can also book by phone. That's definitely important to us, especially for older people. But that can also be automated nowadays.

So about a year ago we got an AI booking tool from our software provider for the first time. It's an AI hotline. It takes the trips, books them and provides information directly to dispatch. Exactly, it comes out of our software. That's why it's very well integrated and works really well. Yes, I can well imagine that. And that means the waiting times – exactly. So you can also book in advance. That's done much more frequently in the countryside than in the city.

We're quite well booked with our services. That means it's not always the case that you get something ad hoc immediately. I think the median waiting time is around 25 minutes. That means most people book in advance, so they know they have to leave in an hour or the next day, and then book exactly that. Up to 7 days in advance. Exactly. So some book their entire week. Oh, crazy. They call – like a doctor's appointment or hairdresser. Oh, how interesting.

Exactly, but ad hoc bookings still happen as well. And we also have that, so we try to make that possible too. For example, we can also outline certain areas in our service area where a vehicle is then only available for ad hoc bookings and is blocked for advance bookings, and so on. That's also possible. That's actually what's nice about on-demand services, that you have multiple vehicles running in parallel. That means you can plan your shifts very well based on the demand curves ultimately. So you have then.

If you have high demand in the morning, you simply schedule more vehicles there and more driving staff. And again in the afternoon. And in between you take a bit of a break. And so it's a learning system. You're working the whole time based on demand development. And ultimately you're also more resilient, because if someone drops out, that doesn't necessarily stand out. Then maybe the waiting time is a bit longer or the detour time a bit longer.

But you're not as vulnerable as with scheduled line services, where we're constantly hearing in the countryside that bus routes are cancelled somehow, staff shortages, school transport cancelled. That can't really happen with us in that sense, instead the waiting times might be a bit longer. I don't know if that's measurable for you or if you have any metrics, but that would be interesting to find out.

Claudio Geyken

One of the target scenarios is not only – which is already worth a lot – to enable people to have mobility in the countryside at all, but also to reduce private transport in terms of the efficiency of transport infrastructure or also for people so they can travel more cost-effectively. Have you seen that as well? Can you measure it – for example, people who drive from Brandenburg into Berlin or who have to travel within your region – whether they use their cars less? How much can you

Jannis Mossmann

Can you give any figures? Yes, we have of course looked at the environmental impact a bit. Our goal is not at all to minimise the use of private cars. That is certainly an objective, but I think it is unrealistic to believe that on-demand services will now abolish the car. A major goal would be if the second or third car were reduced, and we are already seeing that. Why only followed up there – to understand where the challenges lie?

Of course, you still cannot cover all trips. You can in areas where you have a well-functioning on-demand service – by well-functioning I mean where the operating hours are attractive – so, with DALI for example we run seven days a week and really from early morning until late. That means you can rely on it to some extent to always have mobility. And there it would also work to live in those areas without a car.

Or we also notice at Lake Scharmützelsee that tourists, especially from Berlin who do not have a car, also holiday there and partly for the reason that they are simply mobile, which in other areas in Brandenburg is difficult or perhaps not even possible. That is certainly a reason, but I believe abolishing the first car – that is why the figures are small – because people still want to rely on their car.

Claudio Geyken

So, simply because the times – DALI, where is DALI again: DALI is the Storkow-Scharmützel region – there you basically have more operating hours than elsewhere. Exactly, exactly. That would be a basic requirement. But in itself – that would have been my follow-up question. We also had Andreas Knie here, Professor Andreas Knie from TU Berlin, who is an influential social scientist and has strong demands regarding the mobility of the future. One of his demands – at BOSTOC there was a panel, that was quite interesting.

And in the podcast we also discussed that mobility should be completely rethought and the structures as they are now are actually too antiquated and not efficient. And I would be interested, as an innovator in the field, how you see that, to what extent we are rethinking things. I am aware of the challenge, but to what extent you sometimes dare, even as a practitioner – not just as a social scientist – to advocate a strong thesis about what is possible, including in the city.

There is already a lot of public transport in cities, but is it, as it is currently structured, the most efficient way we will travel in the future? And then I also intend to greatly expand the space here for the question of autonomous driving again, into the future, and to consider the overall construct, let's say, how you view it. So, I do see on-demand transport as a kind of precursor to autonomous driving. And there are, I think, two directions in autonomous driving.

Jannis Mossmann

We are now seeing in the USA or also in China that it is being driven forward from a private direction. If you look at Uber or Waymo now: that is ultimately the same as a driver-based Uber at the end. You book a vehicle and travel from A to B. On-demand transport would then perhaps also mean that pooling is added. That is certainly also conceivable. But here in Germany it is the case that we ultimately have very strong public transport.

And that is also a strength. I would say that is a strength of Germany, that with bus, rail and also the taxi – taxi is also part of public transport – we already have a very good system that works quite well, that is being expanded and ultimately also has a major social function because it is a form of basic public service. Mobility is extremely important, and ensuring that it is affordable for all people.

You can only achieve that with a kind of public transport, and on-demand transport as part of public transport is then of course the next step. So, as I have already said: if you have suddenly created a supply of public transport in rural areas, then you do not need much more. I believe the areas that have on-demand services running many days with good operating hours and seven days a week – there it really is the case that every person can decide.

Car or public transport? Public transport so attractive that you can, as I said, do without the second car or even do without the car. You can afford it, you have your Deutschlandticket and then you are mobile. That is great. And if you now think further: a pooling system or an on-demand service that is software-controlled naturally has a major advantage over established public transport modes like bus or rail, in the sense that

this software and the control system already exist and an autonomous vehicle as hardware basically only needs to be integrated. And that is of course super exciting because the rules are still set by the public authorities. They can still ensure that it is affordable, that supply is guaranteed, et cetera. But we equally benefit in the long term from the cost advantages that autonomous vehicles will definitely have in the future.

But we have control over it, and I think that's exciting because we already see it in our regions. No Uber operates there at all. In some cases, even taxis don't run anymore because it simply isn't worthwhile – the demand is too thin. But if you look at the numbers from Dali, for example: We have an area of 300 square kilometres and 20,000 inhabitants, so quite sparsely populated. On average, we currently have about 1,300 trips per week – that gives you a sense of the scale of how many people are already using it.

And we have about 12,000 people using the app. That's the proportion. Sure, that includes tourists or people who have visited the region and perhaps aren't there anymore. But still, in relation to 20,000 inhabitants, that's really, really good. That shows you the penetration of such a service. And if you now think of it as autonomous in the future, then I think you can really leverage the cost advantages.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

And then it becomes interesting for the taxpayer and for the public sector as well, because these are not the cheapest services, and they could certainly become cheaper as a result. Following up again, because this topic really interests me: Isn't it the case – I've also been on trains where there were several carriages and I was the only passenger, or on buses too.

Claudio Geyken

I've thought several times about how smart and efficient these public transport structures are and whether there might be ways to rethink them. The vision that many have put forward is precisely that what you've built in these regions could also be deployed in cities, but really everywhere, where you say: There's less need for these really large buses – perhaps not anymore.

Perhaps you only use these buses on different routes at certain times. But of course, there are many parameters I don't know as well as you do in practice. So I'd like to hear your opinion, a clear statement, where you say: No, I don't see it that way at all, or for this reason it would be worthwhile to rethink how the structures are. I understand that the structures – especially compared to the USA or the world in general – create quite a good, very social system in Germany.

Jannis Mossmann

But that doesn't mean we should abolish this social aspect; rather, we should improve it or rethink it a bit. Yes, I think there's definitely a lot of room for improvement – especially regarding systems and software. We've talked about this before, too. Especially now in public transport, there are of course many players who are very large and very unwieldy and very slow. Whether that's software providers or operators, I'll leave that open. It exists in both areas.

And in my opinion, there's an incredible amount of room for improvement there. And it would be really exciting if, let's say, the newer players from the software side could also enter that market. But that's not so easy, because there are some oligopolies. I think they earn a lot of money from what they do, and they've established themselves quite well. And that definitely needs to be broken up a bit. I'm completely on board with that. And it's similar with the operators.

So, we notice as well – this is obviously clear – not everyone can operate buses or trains. You need incredible capital just to somehow break into the market. But there are good approaches. For example, our former client, the Kreisverkehrsgesellschaft Offenbach, is thinking about perhaps no longer tendering bus and on-demand services separately in the future, but maybe saying: Okay, we actually want one provider. We want a certain transport capacity. We require a certain service quality.

We specify what the parameters should be. And then the parameters aren't: A line runs from A to B, but rather: We want every resident in our area to receive a mobility offer within 20 minutes. And then we simply stipulate that and look for operators who can provide it for us. And then it's up to the operator, who thinks: Sure, I want to do this efficiently, so I need software that controls it efficiently for me. Or: I want to do this efficiently,

so I deploy the vehicles that give me the lowest costs. And that's how electromobility will spread further. And that's how vehicle size will adapt to demand. And then perhaps we won't see any more of that famous hot air being driven around in large buses. So there's definitely still a lot of potential. The way it works today is exactly as you describe it.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

But why is it so entrenched that the framework conditions in the procurement process are made so restrictive and don't allow more freedom to operate a more efficient system? Why they do it that way? Because they've probably always done it that way. Pretty much. Yes, that's a problem. Otherwise, the system isn't actually that bad.

Jannis Mossmann

Normally it's like this: In Germany, the districts are responsible for local public transport, the federal states in turn for regional rail transport, and the federal government, of course, for Deutsche Bahn itself. And every district must have a local transport plan drawn up. In the local transport plan, it's then defined – like in a five-year plan – how transport should be organised, what makes sense, which regions have needs. They're actually not bad.

So there are good things in there, but you're initially locked into this five-year cycle. That means if the market develops quickly, then of course something can quickly become outdated. That's certainly an issue. And then the second issue is naturally: How much money do you pay for it? If you've always done it that way and tendered your transport contract, then you know what it cost. And then it's also easier to set the budget for what it will roughly cost in the future.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

And the funding projects have certainly played a good role there, because they break that open a bit by suddenly making capital available for new transport services. And that might then also find its way into the local transport plans. So that is happening, but it just takes a long time. And I think that's also generally a bit of an issue in Germany – that things just take a long time. And back to you and the company again: How big are you, if you can share that? And I believe you've bootstrapped the company so far – that's startup jargon – meaning without major venture capitalists, but grown profitably. And what's your vision? What's your desired path, what would you like to achieve with your company in the coming years? Yes, exactly. So we founded without external capital and have also grown profitably from the start. We're still a small company. We have roughly, not quite 50 employees, including our drivers and our two branches.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

So we're based in Berlin and have two branches in Brandenburg. And we'd simply like to continue growing a bit larger as well. Of course, we want to operate a few more services. We're now very active in Brandenburg and are also trying to convince more districts and politicians there that this is a good thing. And we're also noticing that especially small services are emerging, and we're applying for those naturally. It's a tender market, so we participate in public tenders.

Jannis Mossmann

On-demand services are normally always tendered by the districts or by transport companies, also as subcontractors. We see a great advantage in being independent. For example, we're software-independent. We can work with different software providers in this area and aren't locked in. That's a real advantage for us, because we simply see the differences and can then also look at what fits which region or which product.

We're also independent regarding on-demand services. Besides on-demand services, we also operate employee transport in Berlin, for example. We work for the Helmholtz Centre in Berlin, for instance. We just won a tender at BER airport and are now setting up an on-demand service for BER there in November. What does that mean for BER exactly? So for the airport and for the airport employees, as I've now learned, on the landside. Exactly, so for the administration buildings on the back side.

Exactly, they'll then be connected to the station and later to the stations, so people can get to work easily and on demand. That's also being tested, I'd say, and perhaps the topic of on-demand and pooling will then also take hold at BER – maybe even autonomously at some point. I do see it that way. Are you already engaged with the topic of autonomous driving? How quickly do you see that in your roadmap? One of our customers says: this year still. What? Yes, that's impressive.

Yes, these days – we're talking about this investment summit right now. They also had Musk and Jensen Huang on stage there, and Jensen Huang also said that Elon Musk had said that this year there will be autonomous Mercedes in Germany. So you're still learning a lot there too. But yes, we're also working on it, naturally. Although I have to say, it's super difficult. Small projects hardly have a chance there, somehow, because

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

there too the big players say: we don't even start below 1,000 vehicles, roughly speaking in Germany. And the federal government also had ideas: we need big flagship projects in Berlin, Munich, Hamburg. So we already had the feeling there: well, rural areas, which actually need it more, aren't necessarily being considered there either. That means we're trying to do our own thing there too. We're in good discussions about that now as well.

Jannis Mossmann

Our district supports us very strongly anyway. We're also bringing the state of Brandenburg on board and are quite optimistic that we can get something off the ground there. And then we've found good providers with whom we hope to implement something in rural areas too, even with just two or three vehicles. And we're quite optimistic that we'll make a very cool start there. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Yes, thanks. Would that be a separate service? Or would that be within your structure that we just discussed?

Yes, we want to operate them. We want to integrate them into our fleets. I believe that especially in rural areas, autonomy naturally has enormous potential. But I also have to say that I don't believe, for example, that we'll go 100% autonomous there. Because we simply notice how important it is to have a driver-based system as well. Our drivers – they don't just drive the vehicle.

This appears to be an incomplete paragraph in the source that ends mid-sentence.

They're in close contact with people. It's not like a bus – we drive with vans. There are two, three people sitting inside. You get to know each other by now, a bit of village gossip. People help each other, support each other. We have completely different social issues. Loneliness – a big issue. So our drivers have a social function, and it's really important to have a good team there. And it's also really fun when you realise what you can achieve with this kind of transport.

It actually has many dimensions. I don't just see it through an economic lens – we always try to consider the socio-economic factors as well. It's really exciting. How do you see this developing? If you had those autonomous vehicles – that social function, how would you deal with it? Well, my wish would be for there still to be a mix in the fleet. That we'd say, I don't know, depending on where we're operating: 80/20.

At the moment anyway, the autonomous vehicles couldn't drive everywhere because network coverage isn't guaranteed – that's still an issue. But when it comes to transporting someone in a wheelchair, or perhaps helping mobility-impaired people getting in and out and so on, I think we're still quite a way from handling that completely autonomously. And I'm not even sure that should necessarily be the goal. But I think a mix definitely makes sense.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

I find that topic interesting too, the network coverage. We're talking about the mobile internet network. There's a SIM card in the car, and it has to constantly exchange data to be able to drive autonomously at all. That's what you mean. Yes, exactly. Well, as I've learned: more than one. I think they have 3, 4 SIM cards in them. Exactly. And ultimately such an area gets mapped, and then you'll first see in which area it's even possible at the moment.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

That means where we have black spots, the autonomous vehicle can't operate anyway – that wouldn't be conceivable. Maybe I'm missing something, but Starlink is now – yes, in Germany you could use that, couldn't you? Do you need a separate antenna or something for that? Or do you know? We have to see if we're allowed to. We're actually in the same district as the Tesla plant, and Tesla is of course also working on bringing autonomous driving to the road. Would be a good partner for you. Would be a good partner, exactly.

Claudio Geyken

But they actually – well, I mean, we are in discussions – but they actually don't have the right vehicle at the moment. They don't have a van. I see. Yes, it's not on the market yet – Elon presented it, but just learned today: it's been announced, there's been speculation about it. But it might then play into your hands that SpaceX and Tesla want to merge. Elon has just announced that anyway. But that's a different topic now.

But Starlink is obviously then clear – that's really exciting in that sense, precisely because of these black spots. I'm not that deep into it anymore, how exactly that would work with the car. I know you need a separate antenna at home. The SIM card probably won't do it then – probably a bit difficult for hardware. We'll leave that to the professionals.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

On the topic of electric mobility – in our podcast here we also talk a lot about electric mobility. You decided early on yourself. Was that a requirement? How easy is it with the electric topic? Do you have many challenges in daily operations? What's that like? Yes, we came into contact with electric mobility relatively early. Back then also together with Audi, when the e-tron was launched – we ran the Berlinale.

Jannis Mossmann

The vehicle was just released that month, I think. And then we drove the Berlinale with 120 e-trons and of course dealt with the topic of charging infrastructure, because we had absolutely no idea how this vehicle would behave – the Berlinale always takes place in February, so in the depths of winter. And we didn't know how the vehicle would behave. Audi themselves didn't really know either yet. So back then we made an enormous effort to build charging infrastructure ourselves.

Back then in Tempelhof, at the airport, we rented a hall, installed 120 charging points and temporarily set up 14 Superchargers. That was already a crazy dimension – probably one of the largest charging locations in Germany, just for 14 days and then dismantled again. Huge numbers of learnings. A year later we only had 8 Superchargers at Potsdamer Platz. So we were able to reduce that considerably, and the costs were of course completely different too. But we immediately realised: okay, it works – actually no problem at all.

That was our learning. And sure, that was also perhaps partly politically motivated at the beginning – sustainability topic and so on – that it was actually relatively clear early on: mobility in the future electric, especially passenger cars in the future electric. That's actually a no-brainer. And with the Mercedes-Benz eSprinter there was actually always a suitable vehicle for this service. We've often used the Vito as a diesel in other services anyway.

And then it became clear to us: okay, let's give it a try with the eVito. At Dali 2022 we started directly with 2 eVitos and back then we didn't have any charging infrastructure at all – we were still charging publicly. We really drove overnight to a public car park that wasn't being used anyway in a small Brandenburg town. Later we simply used our three-phase power connection with mobile wallboxes at the castle car park. That also worked without any problems.

Of course, if a space was occupied or a charging station was out of order, then we immediately had an operational issue. That's why we now also have our depots – depot charging is of course much cheaper anyway. But it became clear from the beginning that it wasn't a cost driver, quite the opposite: electric vehicles are simply cheaper to operate, especially in continuous operation. Only Tempelhof just reminded me again – I found it quite interesting – the question: How were you able to do that then?

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

Did you have enough grid connection capacity for such a huge charging park? At short notice – an airport is probably not easy. Had you taken that into account, or did you have outages because you didn't quite have it on your radar? Yes, we had taken it into account. Well, once you're dealing with Tempelhof Projekt GmbH, it's very thorough. It's state-owned after all. A lot of precautions are taken there. And you need everything, right down to the fire brigade standing by. So it was quite elaborate. Yes.

Jannis Mossmann

And we have a very good planner for such large events, including for those aspects. And did you need load management for that? Or was the capacity actually so large that you didn't need it? Yes, the capacity was that large. I still have photos of the cables we pulled out of the shaft there. That was pretty crazy. Do you still remember off the top of your head how much capacity it was? Well, I think 100 charging points at 11 kW and then 88 fast chargers up to 250. Even back then. So the e-tron, it could be charged super fast even then.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

So it was funny because we always – we worked with a great team from Neckarsulm from Audi. Technicians. And they checked themselves what the cars could do, including in terms of charging power. The e-tron could back then – when was that? 2020 or so – I think it could already charge at 270 kW or something. That means we had several megawatts of capacity available. That's already a unique story. And now you have a depot where you have several charging points. And then you cover these – who said that? – 100 kilometres.

Jannis Mossmann

No, how many? 400 kilometres a day. Was that right? Yes, exactly, roughly that. Then we're talking about approximately 80 kWh. But you also charge in between, essentially. Yes, a bit, exactly. The eVito unfortunately uses relatively a lot – high consumption. So we're now trying other vehicles; something is slowly happening in the van market. Exactly, that's why we're currently in the process of converting the fleet a bit to a new manufacturer. It was mainly about consumption efficiency. Consumption efficiency plays a big role, definitely.

But also the acquisition costs are dropping enormously right now. Yes, but the overall operating costs are already cheaper with electric than with combustion engines, right? Yes, exactly. I think we're at about 20% cheaper than combustion engines. And I expect that now, in terms of pure vehicle operating costs, we'll even get to minus 35% with the new vehicles. Cool. So that's really significant. Yes, the acquisition costs are getting better and better because battery costs have dropped so much in recent years too.

Claudio Geyken + Jannis Mossmann

Yes, and do you also have topics like smart charging, dynamic electricity tariffs, reduced grid fees through peak load capping and bidirectional charging on your radar? Yes, I'd love to do all of that. I'd be totally into it. We also once considered whether to build our own depot. Exactly, also a solar system – I forgot – with batteries. Yes, exactly. The city even offered us a plot of land. But we have the problem that our transport contracts aren't that long yet.

Jannis Mossmann

With the big bus companies you normally have 8 to 10 years. We're still in a different mode. We just got another 2.5 years. And of course that makes planning difficult and doesn't make sense to really build such a depot. But I'd love to do that – a real role model for on-demand transport services, autonomous in the future too, to set up a depot with solar. We also once had a really cool project regarding hydrogen, to build in a range extender as well – with an electrolyser. Yes.

So it would be cool, I'd totally be into it. At the moment it's the case that we have the depot – we have a landlord, and he also sells us the electricity. He has an industrial company himself, and we've docked onto that. That's why we can't choose freely there. But we did that before. So we've definitely also used dynamic electricity tariffs before. Yes, there's quite a bit available. And as an entrepreneur, if you reflect briefly on that again – it's also impressive what you've already done so far.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

And doing so without relying too heavily on external capital. What are some learnings you can share? What helped you to pursue this path and manage to be profitable – which isn't exactly easy either? Well, we've always worked on a project basis. So even when we bid for a tender, it's naturally well calculated so that you don't somehow get yourself into trouble. It's also difficult in the events sector because you're dealing with enormous fluctuations. So an event takes place,

Jannis Mossmann

and then maybe there's a quiet period of twelve months afterwards. That naturally makes it incredibly hard to build up a stable staff. I'd say we grew step by step. Then Corona came. That of course hit us hard too – everything came to a standstill. I think you can be quite grateful that you had a business in Germany at that time. You really were well supported there, so that you could at least take stock for about a year.

And that was a bit of a turning point for us, where we then switched more strongly into the topic of on-demand transport. I think we were proven right. I think that was a smart decision back then, because if you look now – we had many contracts with automotive clients, both German and international automotive clients. But that's almost non-existent now. They're essentially spending no money, especially because of their economic situation. So all the sponsorships.

Claudio Geyken

All the shuttle business has been completely cut to zero for some. Not much is happening there anymore. And finally I wanted to touch on the topic of software that you use. And because AI is currently on everyone's lips: how much are you working with AI, and what kind of software do you use? What have you built yourselves, what do you buy in? How do you think about this as an entrepreneur when it comes to operating on-demand transport? There we buy in.

Jannis Mossmann

We work with – yes, we currently have two software companies we work with. That's certainly something where we're by no means advanced enough yet to really implement something like that ourselves with AI. But I think AI is incredibly exciting – of course especially for smaller companies, because now you can build everything you've always wanted and couldn't afford before. And that's what we've started with.

We're now building our own cockpits to really control things in a metrics-driven way on the one hand and digitise many operational processes on the other. That's what we've begun at the moment – which is by no means finished yet, but where we see enormous potential. And also a huge advantage over the large companies that are all stuck in their old software contracts, can't easily get out of them and are far less flexible.

And I think that's also a major learning with which we've always done well: this agility. We're simply much faster, and we work a lot with customers who aren't used to having such quick partners. We always look very closely to work close to the customer – short lines, fast implementation, responding to requests and so on. And that's actually always carried us. It didn't always mean we were the cheapest.

Claudio Geyken

But it meant that customers were always very happy with the collaboration, and that's more important to us, because ultimately that also makes everything more fun. And finally: you have, I assume, in your stressful day-to-day – we just discussed events, which isn't exactly always stress-free – how do you actually recharge your energy? What are your ways of finding calm again, finding relaxation or recharging your energy? Sport. Definitely. What kind of sport?

Jannis Mossmann

I only started playing tennis two years ago. Yeah, really cool. We should have a match sometime. Gladly. So that's huge fun, it's a wonderful thing. I enjoy playing it. My son plays. And I had the ambition that I'd eventually reach a point where I could play with him too. Is he that good? He definitely beats me. But it's still lots of fun.

And it's also a nice thing when you're travelling – something you can do together, even when the kids get older. That for sure. I play basketball, I've started playing again regularly. You co-organised the Basketball World Cup. The Basketball World Cup was a great joy. I'd already done the Euros back then – that's a passion project. Absolutely. That was cool. But what I can recommend most is hiking. Really? That's when I truly disconnect.

Jannis Mossmann + Claudio Geyken

I like being in the mountains, and it takes two hours – and then you switch off completely, and then everything just passes by you and you return refreshed. In summer, for example, we once hiked across the Alps. Several days. I can relate to that, same for me. So, Jannis, thank you very much for the conversation. Yes, thank you, Claudio. I'm taking three things from this conversation. First: electric is not a cost driver in continuous operation.

Claudio Geyken

Jannis calculates around twenty per cent lower operating costs than diesel and with the new vehicles even minus thirty-five per cent in pure vehicle operating costs. Charging happens at night in their own depot – according to his estimate that's enough in about eighty per cent of cases. With up to four hundred kilometres a day, fast charging is added in between. Second: an obstacle is contract durations. Bus company contracts run eight to ten years, at MWM currently two point five years. That's why having their own operating depot with a solar installation hasn't been worthwhile so far, even though Jannis would really like to have one.

However, he could already optimise certain things now, such as grid fees and electricity procurement. Thirdly, autonomous driving is a complement for him, not a replacement. Drivers have a social function in rural areas. And small projects have a hard time because large providers don't start with fewer than 1,000 vehicles. Whether the first autonomous buses will roll in Brandenburg this year, we will see. Thanks for listening.

S2 Ep. 11 · Jannis Mossmann

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